Israeli plans to cut off east Jerusalem?

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Tojiah's picture
Tojiah
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Sep 15 2008 21:52

Learn how to use quotes, learn how to paragraph, ffs. You're difficult to read for no reason.

Django's picture
Django
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Sep 15 2008 22:15
Quote:
Are you saying the death toll in Iraq, is justification for perpetuating the lie that Israel is a democracy ? It's not !

What are you on about?

So to be clear, you think that Israel is not a democracy because its democratic institutions have been perverted by electoral fraud? In that case, is the United States a functional democracy? Is Japan? Is Britain? It seems that you have a very different definition of what a Liberal Democratic Capitalist system is from anyone else. I wonder if its as poor as your understanding of nazism, which is utterly wrong even down to spelling. Its quite amazing that if someone says that liberal democratic societies, as class societies, do not involve meaningful collective decision making, they "perpetuate the lie that Israel is a democracy"!

Quote:
John Somebody wrote: Diebold trickery and shitting on Ulster Catholics, etc, is hardly comparable with 60 years of genocidal ethnic "cleansing" How many British/U.S. victims of anti - democratic practises do you know of, who get deprived of a vote with a tank shell through their living room ?

I take it this isnt including occupied Iraq? So is it a matter of scale? I thought your point was that election fraud is inherently anti-democratic, and renders the state in which it operates outside of the definition of a Liberal Democracy. In which case, Britain and the US would not be liberal democracies either.

Quote:
Of course such crimes in Iraq are greater, and those crimes are part of a bigger scenario, the same scenario, that Israel is part of. None of that detracts from the fact that the part that Israel plays, involves pretending before the players in world opinion.

I take it by this that you mean that Israel is responsible is some sense for the Iraq war? Who are the players in world opinion? Are you suggesting that Israel manipulates the Western states?

Quote:
Where have I said anything about ignoring other bullies ? I've said that the finger pointing trick, is about pointing the finger at them, diverting focus away from something that was being criticised, and to try making someone lose the thread of what the criticism was.

Yeah I messed up my wording there. Still, the point stands that you think that criticising the nature of "bullies", and advocating getting rid of them, somehow excuses them. What lets "bullies" of the hook is thinking that the Jewish one is unique, that it is congenitally "zio-natzi", and that that is an adequate explanation of its behavior. You seem to think that people here are saying that Israeli state policy is acceptable because it is consistent with the behavior of a liberal democratic state. Everyone has explicitly said that a) Israeli crimes are horrific and b) that liberal democratic states carry out such atrocities all the time, as a consequence of their class nature. They also all think that such states should be abolished. They explicitly oppose all nationalism. If you think that this constitutes Zionism then there must be something wrong with you.

Quote:
John Somebody wrote: You seem not to have noticed that your post was quoted by Joseph K. My reply to him, is what you've replied to above. His distortions were those I referred to

How could quoting me without comment constitute a distortion? Joseph K's posts, along with everyone elses have distorted nothing, only contrasted reality with your paranoid fantasy of the world, and shown considerable patience in doing so.

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Khawaga
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Sep 16 2008 00:39
Quote:
I think I've already argued that with you. Just a few weeks prior to that prisoner-taking expedition, Israel responded very heavily and violently to prisoner-taking by Hamas/some random Palestinian gang in Gaza. Nasrallah could well have expected such a severe response.

I think we did a long time ago. I still would argue that Nasrallah couldn't have expected the response that came (and he didn't), simply because the conflict of Israel viz Hamas/Palestinians usually has had very little bearing on Israel's conflict with Hezbollah. However, I do agree that perhaps Nasrallah should've felt that something was changing (not least Olmert's need to assert himself as a hardman), but this is with the benefit of hindsight. I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

Funny thing that Israel has seemingly reverted to their old policies regarding Hezbollah as the recent (alive/dead) prisoner swap shows.

Tojiah's picture
Tojiah
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Sep 16 2008 05:18

Yeah, because the war was ultimately fruitless, in regards to prisoners and other things; that's the Israeli consensus.

John Somebody
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Sep 16 2008 09:45

[John Somebody wrote:
Are you saying the death toll in Iraq, is justification for perpetuating the lie that Israel is a democracy ? It's not !

Django wrote:
What are you on about?

John Somebodywrote:
You replied to my assertion that Israel is not a democracy, by referring to the death toll in Iraq, as though that somehow negates the fact that Israel, despite the lies, is not a democracy.. Why do you need me to tell you that's what I was on about ?

Django wrote:
So to be clear, you think that Israel is not a democracy because its democratic institutions have been perverted by electoral fraud? In that case, is the United States a functional democracy? Is Japan? Is Britain? It seems that you have a very different definition of what a Liberal Democratic Capitalist system is from anyone else. I wonder if its as poor as your understanding of nazism, which is utterly wrong even down to spelling. Its quite amazing that if someone says that liberal democratic societies, as class societies, do not involve meaningful collective decision making, they "perpetuate the lie that Israel is a democracy"!

John Somebody wroyte: To be clear. The election fraud I refer to, is a fraud, (read the thread, and check), created by 60 years of creating an artificial zionist majority, by means of genocidal ethnic "cleansing". The U.S. is not a functioning democracy, due to the trickery of the people behind Karl Rove and their predecessors. In world terms the U.S. is less democratic than most other countries, due to the facts of the same people manipulating societies in other countries, including Israel, though manipulatiions happen in both directiions, possibly at core with the same people behind them anyway. However, those people come from various countries, and undemocratically manipulate any countries they can, if it suits their purpose.

Quote:
John Somebody wrote: Diebold trickery and shitting on Ulster Catholics, etc, is hardly comparable with 60 years of genocidal ethnic "cleansing" How many British/U.S. victims of anti - democratic practises do you know of, who get deprived of a vote with a tank shell through their living room ?

Django wrote: I take it this isnt including occupied Iraq? So is it a matter of scale? I thought your point was that election fraud is inherently anti-democratic, and renders the state in which it operates outside of the definition of a Liberal Democracy. In which case, Britain and the US would not be liberal democracies either.

John Somebody wrote:
What isn't including occupied Iraq ? Read the quote that you refer to, immediately following on from it, and immediately after your own interjectiion.

Quote:
Of course such crimes in Iraq are greater, and those crimes are part of a bigger scenario, the same scenario, that Israel is part of. None of that detracts from the fact that the part that Israel plays, involves pretending before the players in world opinion. Your point, appeared to be that Britain / U.S. also have undemocratic things, but you still haven't told me, of any Brits/ Americans getting deprived of a votes by means involving tank shells. So, again,do you know of any ?

Django:
I take it by this that you mean that Israel is responsible is some sense for the Iraq war? Who are the players in world opinion? Are you suggesting that Israel manipulates the Western states?

John Somebody :
Why should you take it that I mean any such thing ? Where have I said anything close?
The players in world opinion, are evreyone who holds and acts on opinions about international affairs.

Quote:
Where have I said anything about ignoring other bullies ? I've said that the finger pointing trick, is about pointing the finger at them, diverting focus away from something that was being criticised, and to try making someone lose the thread of what the criticism was.

Django:
Yeah I messed up my wording there. Still, the point stands that you think that criticising the nature of "bullies", and advocating getting rid of them, somehow excuses them. What lets "bullies" of the hook is thinking that the Jewish one is unique, that it is congenitally "zio-natzi", and that that is an adequate explanation of its behavior. You seem to think that people here are saying that Israeli state policy is acceptable because it is consistent with the behavior of a liberal democratic state. Everyone has explicitly said that a) Israeli crimes are horrific and b) that liberal democratic states carry out such atrocities all the time, as a consequence of their class nature. They also all think that such states should be abolished. They explicitly oppose all nationalism. If you think that this constitutes Zionism then there must be something wrong with you.

John Somebody:
How th fuk dyu get from, "advocating getting rid of them", (bullies), to, somehow excuses them ?
The particular way that,so called, "Jewish", bullies, ( I suppose you mean zionists), really are unique, is that they have tended to get away with blatant crimes, such as genocide, then create an artificial zionist majority as a result, and have imitation lefties, as well as the hard core zionasty scum coluding in the lie that the resulting state with the zionasty majority, is democratic. I think your playing the old zionist distortion that the zio - natzi state, (which is zio - natzi because fundamental to it, is the state practitioning of genocide), is somehow, definitively, Jewish. Its not.

Quote:
John Somebody wrote: You seem not to have noticed that your post was quoted by Joseph K. My reply to him, is what you've replied to above. His distortions were those I referred to

Django :
How could quoting me without comment constitute a distortion? Joseph K's posts, along with everyone elses have distorted nothing, only contrasted reality with your paranoid fantasy of the world, and shown considerable patience in doing so.

John Somebody:
He didn't quote you, "without comment", under the quote, in the space for his contribition, were a series of ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ 's. So his point, for want of a better word, was, he believed that what you had said, was all he needed to say, in reply to an earlier post from me. It wasn't . My reply was to that post of his. Not to a post by you, Though the particular distortion you made, (which was a continuance of earlier distortons made by him), remains a distortion. I wish I could find it , but I ve been back and forth over the posts a few times, and can't. If you need firther clarification over the distortion, remind me of the quote. You don't specify what exatly is paranoid, or fantastic, about what I've said. Untill you do, I'll have reason to suppose that such comments are merely desperate attempts to deflect me.

For general notice to any/everyone.
I'm sorry if my way of typing this out, isn't as graphic as yours, or as most people here, I suppose its because I'm not as computer clever as most people here. Or possibly that this computer / the controls on this site, are inconsistant, as I've noticed on this and another site, that I've achieved inconsistant results from the sites own toolbar. Though I that other people manage quite well, I have found at least two people who have the same problem, and attribute it to poor consistency, on the functioning of the site. Yes I could get friends to tutor me on this, but with health problems creating a backlog, It has to have a low priority of things I need to do with them If you, or anyone thinks this detracts from the validity of what I'm saying, Then, please let me know why. And possibly make a constructive, mature suggestion as to how, to improve this. If there's something unclear about putting / leaving the name of the person saying something, ahead of what is said, then, also, please let me know what it is.

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Rob Ray
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Sep 16 2008 09:44

Argh, quote madness!
Also, political madness!

Seriously this guy has been throwing around vile accusations and defending theocratic murderers for ages now, surely this is ban-worthy?

John Somebody
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Sep 16 2008 09:57
Rob Ray wrote:
Argh, quote madness!
Also, political madness!

Seriously this guy has been throwing around vile accusations and defending theocratic murderers for ages now, surely this is ban-worthy?

Meanwhile all you seem capable of, is general purpose slander, from the sidelines, without any criticism providing specific fact. WHAT ?, And that's supposed to be enough to silence someone that you're critical of ? You sound a bit like the zionists confronting me on the streets of Manchester, telling the police to arrest me, but relying on the slightly less rabid zionasties to provide some kind of detail about an alleged offence

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Rob Ray
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Sep 16 2008 10:02

I tend to pick arguments where I think people are capable of debating reasonably. I’ve argued with people like you before, as have others here, and there’s little things like calling people zio-natzis which show your attitude nicely. I could argue with you for a year and prove you wrong in a hundred different ways, and because you are totally convinced that you’re in the right and everyone who disagrees with you is your enemy, you’ll keep banging away until either the keyboard or your audience’s patience runs out. Forgive me if I don’t find this to be an appealing use of my time.

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Django
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Sep 16 2008 10:19
john somebody wrote:
How th fuk dyu get from, "advocating getting rid of them", (bullies), to, somehow excuses them ?

You have been consistently raving on about how the argument that a)Israel is a liberal democratic state and b)liberal democratic states are capable of barbarism is an apologia for Israel, and amounts to "Zionism". Your exact words were:

john somebody wrote:
you understand that perfectly well, and, like the friend of the schoolyard bully, keeps pointing the finger at other bullies, (whose bullying has not involved 60 years of overt genocidal ethnic "cleansing"), and then accusing a critic of the genocidal maniac bully, of being " incapable of comprehending". Are you fucking real?

Friends of the Israeli state? The position of everyone here is that liberal democratic states are class societies, and must be abolished - getting rid of all bullies, following your analogy. That would also involve getting rid of the bullies you support - the bourgeois murder gangs in the occupied territories. Even if it hadn't been said, a cursory look at the site would tell you that. Or do you just post off the shelf rants about "zio-natzis" on every site you blunder onto?

Quote:
What isn't including occupied Iraq ?

I'll repost your question

Quote:
How many British/U.S. victims of anti - democratic practises do you know of, who get deprived of a vote with a tank shell through their living room ?

Given how obsessed you are with functioning capitalist democracy, is occupation a democratic practice? If not, then surely the US, Britain, Poland, Japan, South Korea etc are not democracies either.

Quote:
The election fraud I refer to, is a fraud, (read the thread, and check), created by 60 years of creating an artificial zionist majority, by means of genocidal ethnic "cleansing". The U.S. is not a functioning democracy, due to the trickery of the people behind Karl Rove and their predecessors. In world terms the U.S. is less democratic than most other countries, due to the facts of the same people manipulating societies in other countries, including Israel, though manipulatiions happen in both directiions, possibly at core with the same people behind them anyway. However, those people come from various countries, and undemocratically manipulate any countries they can, if it suits their purpose.

Thats a tautology, not an argument. Still, I thought issues like bribery and the systematic deprival of voting rights would amount to electoral fraud. As you put in block capitals before, electoral fraud is anti-democratic, meaning the country in which it happens pretends to be a democracy. So surely scale isn't an issue, and moral rants about how "natzi" Israel is aren't counter arguments. But by your measure, every liberal democratic state in the world is "pretending" to be a democracy. Says something fundamental about liberal democracies, no? But then if your definition of "electoral fraud" is "Isreal", then conversation with anyone other than yourself is impossible. It would, however, fit with your utterly wrong definition of what nazism is, held only by yourself.

Additionally, the last two sentances there are textbook conspiracy theory.

Which answers

Quote:
Why should you take it that I mean any such thing ? Where have I said anything close?

What is this "same situation" you talk about across Israel and Iraq? Rationality would say capitalist imperialism, but given that you think a congenital "zio-natzism" is an adequate explanation for state action I take it that isn't it.

Though I am really doubting the value of arguing with a loon mental enough to repeatedly misspell "nazi" out of spite.

Django's picture
Django
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Sep 16 2008 10:20
Rob Ray wrote:
Argh, quote madness!
Also, political madness!

Seriously this guy has been throwing around vile accusations and defending theocratic murderers for ages now, surely this is ban-worthy?

People have been banned for this in the past.

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Joseph Kay
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Sep 16 2008 12:35

John Somebody has been banned.

Probably Your C...
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Sep 16 2008 21:43
Joseph K. wrote:
yoshomon wrote:
I think that it is important to differentiate between anti-semitism - expressed in what you call "anti-finance capital 'zionist conspiracy'" leftism - and anti-jewish racism. The two certainly overlap, but they are different things and operate differently in the world. Most people who propagate anti-semitic ideas do not hate jewish people. This is why one can call it "structural".

i'd agree with that, certainly chimes with my experience

FFS Arabs are Semites; everything to do with this subject therefore fails

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Khawaga
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Sep 17 2008 00:18
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FFS Arabs are Semites; everything to do with this subject therefore fails

While this is correct, anti-semitism is a concept that historically has developed to only refer to Jews.

Probably Your C...
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Sep 17 2008 00:27

cant people just say anti-jewish? lot simpler

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Anarchia
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Sep 17 2008 02:28

Actually, neither Jews nor Arabs are "semites" - rather, Hebrew and Arabic are semitic languages. Anti-semitism as a term was created by a German Judeophobe called Wilhelm Marr who wanted a more scientific sounding term for his Jew hatred....

People who say "Arabs/Palestinians are semites too!" are wasting everyones time generally, rather than approaching the actual issue at hand.

yoshomon
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Sep 17 2008 14:20
Probably Your Class Enemy wrote:
cant people just say anti-jewish? lot simpler

Except that anti-Jewish racism and anti-semitism are not the same thing, even if they often go hand in hand.