Israeli plans to cut off east Jerusalem?

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Khawaga
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Aug 4 2008 22:19
Quote:
What reason do you have to suppose its only natzis that I oppose ?

Because the (zio)nazis are the only ones you're writing about. Why haven't you given me an answer to my posts, or for that matter Joseph and Treeofjudas.

John Somebody
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Aug 5 2008 00:07
Joseph K. wrote:
John Somebody wrote:
R and B wrote of what he/she thought of as a lack of response. That may have been wrong, but your dismissal seemed enough for me to make a point of. There's obviously things we can do, but whether an individual can make time for those things is obviously a matter for individual consideration. Your asking R n B if he/she gave a shit, about local situations that don't include kiddies being shot on the streets, is surely an attempt to undermine an important effort to give more than a shit about genocide

R&B wrote that in the original post, so i'm not sure how s/he was responding to a lack of responses. for the record, i do think the israeli state's treatment of the palestinian population is terrible. ditto the burmese state and its. and the situation in swathes of central africa is depressing. in fact, there are many things i have little power to influence that i disagree with, to borrwow a quote off another thread:

Quote:
It's not the job of communists to try to fix each individual problem in society.

You're so right, and the world being terrorised by states, and those who react, rather than respond, does not detract from the fact, that no matter what, anyone thinks genuine progress is, there's only one alternative to a lack of it, and evolution can't be stopped. So one day, we shall be civilised. U nless someone destroys the planet first. In the mean time, all we have to do, is the best we can do, to minimise the hurt. And thereby hastening the day. So to do that, surely, we have to prioritise. And if we can identify, more suffering going on in one place, more than another, then we deal with the greatest need first. And if its not us that have the greatest need, then it's not us, then so what ? And if by thought and discussion, we learn that the greatest need is not to simply deal with the next crisis, but to inspire thought, discussion, and learning about just who it is that keeps causing the crises, at the root, if anyone, then that's great. And if we can identify the most blatant examples of brainwashing, and prove to people, that they have been brainwashed, then we're making a good move. And if we're told for 60 fuckin years that a state/society that has created a zionist majority by means of killing/expelling people who are not zionists, is D E M O fucking C R A T I C, then we're onto a winner. And yes, there's lots of possibilitiesas to what priorities should be, with each of us having to decide for ourselves. But to dismiss someone elses attempts to drum up support for what they see as a priority, by asking themif they give a shit about what's happening in their own country, despite the facts of where the greater need is, is something I'd expect from the BN fucking P. Do you know how those countries in Africa, came to be as porr and war ravaged as they are.? Do you know what this country owes to them ? Name ajob in this country that doesn't depend on electricity. Every factory, school, hospital, home, and job, and the welfare state, in this country, has been subsidised by exploitation such as of some poor sod who's worked down a copper mine in the African copper belt. Can you guess how his/her living conditions have compared to that of ignorant British people, who can be racist, because imitation lefties fail to inform them of their debt to the people painted as scroungers,? And later as simply having the bad luck to be born in a poor country. So if there's a need to do anything for people in the rich, industrialised world, it s to ionform them about what they fucking owe
We're not powerless to do somethin about these things, if you want to pretend that you are, then that's between you, and your conscience. It's a different thing to put down someone else's efforts to stir up action, then you're part of the problem

John Somebody
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Aug 5 2008 01:30
Khawaga wrote:
Quote:
What reason do you have to suppose its only natzis that I oppose ?

Because the (zio)nazis are the only ones you're writing about. Why haven't you given me an answer to my posts, or for that matter Joseph and Treeofjudas.

Well first off thanks for acknowledging that (zio)natzis exist.

Zionatzis are not the only ones I've written about on this site. They', and their most direct victims been the ones are the ones I've focused on, on this thread, because this thread is about their activities. Is that wrong of me, not to go off on tangents? Do you think I should have written more about the wombles ? ? ? And it just so happens, As I found this particularly silly post of yours, I'd just finished a lengthy reply involving Africa.. But that's a bit of a tangent, in reply to a tangent by . . . . . . . Joseph. . . . .I assume this is the same Joseph, that you say I've not answered.
And then you really take the fuckin biscuit. You say not replying to your posts, when I've spentn fucking hours over the past couple of days, (I'm sure typing a lot slower than you) but providing much of the past couple of days posts, answering you. While you just wriggle. failing to answer. And then youve the fucking cheek, to take one question, answer it with the flatulent flavoured bullshit that I've just dismissed . And pretend I've not answered your posts ? ?????
Well go on then. I'll try another quesion for you that your not likely to answer, unless this is just another attempt to wriggle out of addressing the issues of the neo natzi scum and their behaviour in bits of what used to be Palestine, before it was stolen. Go on then, tell me which of your posts I'd not answered, before the bit where I broke off to do some work, at 2:00 pm Monday. I re - started at about, 10;00, breaking off now and then, to do things, like going to the toilet. Now Its 12:40 am, Tues. and this is my 3rd post , this session. I'm sorry to have to tell you, that in future, I might not reply for days on end. If I'm busy. Or if I go somewhere without a connection, it might be a couple of weeks. I hope you won't tell on me to your solicitors. And I do hope you don't have some kinfd of delusion about me being subservient to some sort of master race.
Shall we have a competition to see how many answers to you I've supplied, over the past two pages, compare to the answers that you've supplied ?
Oops it seems, trying to find where I was up to in replying to earlier posts, you've posted something while I was busy answering Joseph, in one of many answers, on the same fucking page. This is the man you say I don't reply to. It seems to me, that being an old fart, keyboard style one finger wonder, I'm just not quick enough, to keep up with you, unless that is, I ignore everyone but you.

John Somebody
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Aug 5 2008 01:44
Joseph K. wrote:
John Somebody wrote:
The victims, Israeli, and Palestinian, are victims of the persistant aggresive provocateurs -- zionists.

this simply isn't true, islamists and various nationalists from Hamas, Fatah and Hezbollah etc all have agendas of their own which are no more dependent on zionism than zionism is on them (arguably they all need each other). pinning all the blame on 'zionists' lets reactionary islamists and nationalists off the hook whilst simultaneously denying them any agency. none of these forces represent anything positive for the working class in the region, and they should all be rejected and condemned, even while their differing agendas and power-bases are understood.

This simply is true.And demonstrably so, by the fact that Palestinian reactionary forces exist in the way they do, because they're in a situation which would not exist, if zionists had been content to try to win over the Jewish population with something like 8% of the land in 1947, to their cause, and then try to gain the rest of Palestine by peaceful means. Which of course would have meant that modern Israel, could never have existed. Which is why they resorted to genocidal ethnic "cleansing to get their way. So, the situation now, with Palestinian retalliation, could not be happening without that aggression. And it could not still be happening now, without further attrocities, over 60 years, designed to defend an artificial zionist majority, and an imitation democracy. Trying to pin any blame on any Palestinians, for anything other than seriously over reacting, which is what truly terrorised people do, (thereby hurting innocents, and giving zio hypocrites the chance to shout, "terrorists"), that pinning blame on Palestinians has been to contribute to letting the aggressors off the hook. I believe I have answered you, with this reply. Now tell me, please, where its innacurate.
I' think I've answered your other point from a seperate paragraph, your post, in my earlier post just before I had to swan off to work.

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 5 2008 06:54
John Somebody wrote:
Trying to pin any blame on any Palestinians, for anything other than seriously over reacting, which is what truly terrorised people do... I believe I have answered you, with this reply. Now tell me, please, where its innacurate.

it's so wrong i don't know where to start:
- you treat palestinians as homogenous again
- you deny any of them agency, they're all purely reactive for you
- you afford them all the status of pristine blameless victims
- the above constitutes bullshit modern white-mans burden third-worldism, seeking out passive victims to save, in a way which relies on some pretty suspect assumptions (the very structure of seeing 'israel' as puling all strings and denying 'palestinians' any agency is disturbing).

If you're willing to let Hamas and Hezbollah off the hook for 'seriously over-reacting' to al-nakba then surely you have to give the establishment of israel some slack as 'seriously over-reacting' to the shoah. to state it again, in clear terms, neither 'israelis' or 'palestinians' are homogenous categories anywhere but in the minds of nationalists. there are active-reactive forces on 'both sides', who mutually re-enforce one another, and mutually fuck over the working class population of the region. it is not for communists to side with the most victimised gangsters, but to consistently reject them all because none of them offer us anything but a future of war and terror and lining up behind our rulers.

i'll come back to your other post later, needless to say it's a load of guilt-politics, third-worldist shite that's completely lacking class analysis. and yes i am pretty aware of the history of colonialism.

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Kattmannen
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Aug 5 2008 08:06

Hey John Somebody, I agree that the genocide and apartheid in Palestine is shit and can be compared to what the nazi's did to the jews only they do it on a slower scale so the rest of the world doesn't intervene. Doing it on a scale like Hitler would most probably be pissing even more people off, both jews, palestinians, neighbours and the rest of the world, so they keep it on a pace that is safe for them so they can keep it slow and also attract terrorist attacks in order to justify it and keep other countries from intervening. Most people agree it is shit, the thing is what do we do about it? Supporting nationalism is not the answer for internationalists/anarchists/socialists. Fatah and Hizbollah is just shit, they have nothing to offer the working class. Can you agree that they have nothing to offer? Can you agree that nationalism is not the answer?

radicalgraffiti
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Aug 5 2008 08:53
John Somebody wrote:
Oh, all right then, it's not only natzis, that have natzi qualities. Its like saying its not only fascists that have fascist qualities. And so, titles like, " red facist " emerge. That doesn't make the use of the title, "fascist ", innacurate, when its used with the title/term, "red. Does it ?

Yes it is inaccurate, though there are similarities. Many states have done similar things, do we call them all nazis/fascists?

John Somebody wrote:
So again your reason to oppose my use of terms like zio -neo -natzi, are just barrel scraping aren't they ?

No, you try to associate Zionists with nazis because everyone knows nazis are bad, but this creates a false division between bad and good states, it doesn't explain why they do what they do, its just about provoking an emotional response

John Somebody wrote:
What reason do you have to suppose its only natzis that I oppose ?
What reason do you have to suppose that I call everyone who does things I don't like a natzi ?

See what Khawaga said. Also you seem to be justifying the actions of terrorist organisations who intentionally kill innocent civilians because they oppose the zionists, or because Israel did something bad first.

John Somebody wrote:
And if we can identify the most blatant examples of brainwashing, and prove to people, that they have been brainwashed, then we're making a good move. And if we're told for 60 fuckin years that a state/society that has created a zionist majority by means of killing/expelling people who are not zionists, is D E M O fucking C R A T I C, then we're onto a winner.

Many people know already that Israel does bad things, this doesn't automatically lead to them becoming communists, if it did we would have won already.
There are much bigger, more damaging and more widespread illusions than the idea that Israel is democratic, such as the believe that people have something in common with there nation, that moneys necessary, that the ussr was communist, that people need leaders, that you can't change things.

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 5 2008 09:13
John Somebody wrote:
And if we can identify the most blatant examples of brainwashing, and prove to people, that they have been brainwashed

who has been brainwashed?

John Somebody wrote:
And if we're told for 60 fuckin years that a state/society that has created a zionist majority by means of killing/expelling people who are not zionists, is D E M O fucking C R A T I C

bourgeois democracies are not averse to murderous occupations, see Iraq. the difference with israel is we're witnessing in our lifetimes the violent process of dispossession that is at the root of all states but is for the most part a matter of history. you do seem to be harbouring some illusions in bourgeois democracy though.

John Somebody wrote:
by asking themif they give a shit about what's happening in their own country, despite the facts of where the greater need is, is something I'd expect from the BN fucking P

just to clarify, are you calling me a 'nazi' as well as zionists? i'd invoke godwin, but i'd rather have some effect on your politics than just 'win' the argument. in my experience of palestine solidarity groups, the activism is very much in lieu of activity around our everyday lives, and tends to involve a martyr mentality of burning yourself out doing largely ineffectual stuff for some noble victims halfway round the world. a mentality you're showcasing rather well. this kind feeling guilty and taking individual responsibility for the crimes of the ruling class is not something with any real potential to affect the situation in any positive way.

John Somebody wrote:
Well go on then. I'll try another quesion for you that your not likely to answer, unless this is just another attempt to wriggle out of addressing the issues of the neo natzi scum and their behaviour in bits of what used to be Palestine, before it was stolen. Go on then, tell me which of your posts I'd not answered

well, my specific explanation of why the term 'nazi' is innacurate, hysterical hyperbole for starters...

Joseph K. wrote:
John Somebody wrote:
radicalgraffiti wrote:
John Somebody wrote:
And zionists clearly are neo - natzis, if state practicing / sanctioning of genocide, is a fundamental, defining factor of natzism,

But its not.

Don't simply say, " But it's not ", as though I'm supposed to accept your decree. Tell me why

because nazism, as opposed to fascism in general, is a very specific ideology with a mythology about the supremacy of the 'aryan race', the importance of a german fatherland and national identity, the undermining of this by 'cosmpolitan jews' etc. Part of the practice of this ideology was the physical extermination of its enemies (communists/anarchists/trade unionists) and its scapegoats (jews/romany), but even on the genocide front the comparison with Israel/zionism doesn't hold up as despite its vast hi-tech arsenal israel is not industrially exterminating palestinians, but maintaining them in intolerable conditions, perhaps in the hope they'll just give up and leave.

i'll say it again, there's no need to let the crimes of what is essentially liberal capitalist democracy off the hook by labelling them 'nazi.' capitalist states off all shades are capable of all sorts of atrocities.

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Khawaga
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Aug 5 2008 11:11
Quote:
Well first off thanks for acknowledging that (zio)natzis exist.

I don't I was paraphrasing you. There is no such thing as zionazis, it's only a semantic trick. If you'd only compared Israel to apartheid South Africa I would have had much more sympathy with your argument (strictly academic I might add).

Quote:
You say not replying to your posts, when I've spentn fucking hours over the past couple of days, (I'm sure typing a lot slower than you) but providing much of the past couple of days posts, answering you. While you just wriggle. failing to answer. And then youve the fucking cheek, to take one question, answer it with the flatulent flavoured bullshit that I've just dismissed . And pretend I've not answered your posts ? ?????

If you believe that you've replied to my posts that's unfortunate. I can't see you have answered any questions of mine, very direct questions I might add. I am not even sure what it is that you've dismissed of my posts. I don't care when you reply, after all a message board like this is asynchronous. Please take your time and I'll read and respond to your posts in due time. I just don't see any content in your posts whatsoever, just rants and frankly I find your lack of knowledge about I/P seriously lacking.

I'll give you some very specific questions you can answer:

What do you think of Hamas? What do you think of Fatah? What do you think of the Gush Shalom zionists? What do you think of the Israeli Anarchists Against the Wall (gasp! an anti-zionist Israeli group)? What about the working class in both nations? What do you propose communists should do about I-P? What do you propose people could do in general (what are you doing practically)?

And while I see that you've tried to answer Joseph now, you've still failed to reply to TreeofJudas' questions (which you should considering he's the only one actually living in that zionazi entity).

John Somebody
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Aug 5 2008 19:12
Kattmannen wrote:
Hey John Somebody, I agree that the genocide and apartheid in Palestine is shit and can be compared to what the nazi's did to the jews only they do it on a slower scale so the rest of the world doesn't intervene. Doing it on a scale like Hitler would most probably be pissing even more people off, both jews, palestinians, neighbours and the rest of the world, so they keep it on a pace that is safe for them so they can keep it slow and also attract terrorist attacks in order to justify it and keep other countries from intervening. Most people agree it is shit, the thing is what do we do about it? Supporting nationalism is not the answer for internationalists/anarchists/socialists. Fatah and Hizbollah is just shit, they have nothing to offer the working class. Can you agree that they have nothing to offer? Can you agree that nationalism is not the answer?

At last, a voice of reason in a room full of closet zionists. Yes, you're right, but there's an awfull lot of shit in the world. But years ago, I came to understand, when aware that there didn't seem to be anyone other than the SWP, or some lesser shits than the big shits that were blatantly closer to the source of the problem, that I could work with, to clean it up. Then it was obvious that if I tried to work outside the least shitty groups, co - operating with no one but those who utterly agreed with me I'd be innefective as well as lonely. So, next was the possibility of only working as part of groups, that I share fundamental goals, with. That led to something like becoming part of a big SWP machine, or a little RCG ghetto, (English immitation lefties, and hard line commies, who just manipulate independant thinkers to the back of the room), or, wow, a revolution, being open to co - operating with anyone, who, seems to be swimming in the same direction. I mean the direction I can see, while I'm withdrawn from group mentality, which can't be reasoned with, which is therfore bound to become part of the problem, can only manipulate, and be parasitic. So, as a free floating Anarchist butterfly, I can be more mentally stable, and reasonable, than I would be otherwise. And free to co - operate with someone, no matter if group mentality victims keep telling me how terrible they are, I can know individuals within that group, reason with them, demonstrating personal responsibility, and maybe even improving things. So, yes I've even been known to work with the SWP. but I'm not their captive. The same with Anarchist groups, and oooooh, shiiiiittt, supporters of Hizbollah. I know Fatah members, who are embarrassed at the how easy it is, to slag off their group, and reluctant to take to the streets, in much needed demonstrations, while their leadership become Israel's lackies. And now they look around for alternatives. Who will they find ? Amongst others, they'll see me who tries to fight anyone who tries to deprive people of autonomy, and will work with anyone seeking to defend it. What a surprise to find there's potential for a bit of both, the autonomist, and the fascist in everyone, and everyone seems to have different degrees, of each, and can shift between. Hizbollah, from what I've seen of them, are not as far up the fascistometer, as some people in the Labour party. So, O.K., if push comes to shove, I'll spend less time slagging off the labour party, than I will joining them against a worse threat, like George Bush. And if I hear someone slagging of the SWP, while they're taking on lickspittle lackies of Bush, in the Labour party, I'll suspect those critics of getting their priorities wrong. Of course, I might talk to them, despite my "colleagues" sometimes trying to discourage, or even forbid me to. But they expect an Anarchist like me to tell them to fuck off.

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 5 2008 19:17
John Somebody wrote:
At last, a voice of reason in a room full of closet zionists.

point to a single thing i or others discussing with you have said that equates to zionism. thanks.

tigersiskillers
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Aug 5 2008 19:58
John Somebody wrote:

At last, a voice of reason in a room full of closet zionists.

Ok, let's keep this simple. Why can't you understand that not blindly championing Palestinian nationalism is not the same as being pro-zionist? It's not a particularly hard concept to grasp. It's not an either/or choice.

I'm probably the only person who'll get this, but this thread reminds me of that Atom and his package song, "the palestinians are not the same thing as the rebel alliance".

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Khawaga
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Aug 5 2008 20:26

John Somebody, I still haven't figured out what it is that you do to support the Palestinians and what you suggest that anarchists should do.

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Rob Ray
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Aug 5 2008 21:00

This guy really doesn't listen does he?

Everyone who has been arguing with you here is coming from a very simple position.

Israeli state=bad
Palestinian nationalists=bad

This is not the same thing as zionism, which says

Israeli state=good
Palestinian nationalists=bad

Or you, who appear to think

Israeli state=bad
Therefore Palestinian nationalists=good

Do you have any idea how fucking stupid it sounds to tell people who have said several times that the israeli state is a bad thing that they're closet zionists? Or that you start throwing around how much of an anarchist you are when you're talking up a bunch of fucking religious nationalists as the official opposition?

And it's spelled Nazi. Not Natzi. The Israelis aren't Nazis, because if they were they'd be trying to drive themselves into the sea - because that was an integral part of nazi ideology. Not facism necessarily, but nazism. What Israel IS is a capitalist state which is trying to control supplies of water and land and lord it over a subject population, which is quite a big enough can of worms to open already without throwing around inaccurate terminology. They aren't marching people into camps and murdering them en masse, they are doing the same thing as the British, French, Americans and every other imperial power has done at some point in its history and subjugating a specific group of people who they're competing with for assets.

I mean think of the difference in scale - in a six year period the Nazis institutionally (ie. irrespective of combat or collateral kills, this is just unarmed civillians they deliberately gassed or shot for kicks) killed upwards of 11 million people. Israel in the period 2000-2006 - the exact same time scale - managed around 4,900, mostly in combat conditions. They are not the same thing. Not even close. The earlier post had it right about this being similar to apartheid.

PLEASE NOTE THE PRECEDING PARAGRAPH DOES NOT MEAN I SUPPORT THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT - but ffs get some perspective.

yoshomon
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Aug 6 2008 13:53
Quote:
At last, a voice of reason in a room full of closet zionists.

Oh no! ZOG controls Libcom!

John Somebody
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Aug 8 2008 01:51
Quote:
I've been with the ISM in Palestine twice; I've seen kids getting shot, beaten up, arrested, harassed and just generally Palestinians being fucked over by the occupation. In my work with ISM I have been beaten up and been shot at several times. You on the other hand is just typing nonsense online, nonsense that doesn't even get the basics of the conflict right.

Well I assumethat if you've been targetted like that, that you must have been doing something right, and I respest you for that much. However, for you to assume that you can counterbalance those contributions with the total of what you've read of mine. And then to claim its nonsense any way, without you being able at this point to have managed to show where that nonsense is, is proof of your own irrationality. Isn't this the second time you've simply issued a contradiction, of my stuff without backing it up,as though I'm supposed to accept your decree ? Try again, instead of going on as though you've made a point by accusing me of typing nonesense, and then going off on another tangent, try to be specific as to what nonesense I've supposed to have typed, where I've not succesfully dismissed your criticism, proving it to be nonesense.

Quote:
some of the nationalists that I know in Palestine wants to throw all the jews into the med. not all, but some. In general those Palestinians that have contact with Israelis tend to be ok with them, others to hate them (especially in Hebron, Jenin, Nablus and Gaza, and even more so in the refugee camps in those places). Most people in Palestine will be happy with the 67 borders. And yes, there are some Palestinians ready to accept far less than others, as I've already stated. That doesn't dtract from the fact as to whether or not a state/society that depends on genoicde, to exist, has any right to exist. Even if it were ethnic "cleansing" without the massacres, that Israel depended on, then even still, would you say, that anyone who wants to take over a place, by theft and murder, and defend it, and enlarge it by the same methods, has a right to stay there? If Palestinians really want to accept that, then that's their choice. It doesn't mean that a minute, a year, or ten years, after such a deal, that any of them knowing that they'd been co - erced into it, would not have a right to say, that any deal, involving one side being forced into it, is not binding. But of course, zionistswould bleat about how Arabs can't be trusted.

That's right, some Palestinians do want such thing's, and possibly for the reasons, amongst others I've already stated, which you seem to have difficulty, in acknowledging. I dont see how we can know if it's a majority that want what you say they want. But then I wonder if you have a pattern of assumptions, that you state as fact.
The zionist movement as a whole, is far worse than C 18. How many do you think C 18 have murdered this week ? And in principle, the worst of each must be comparable. Have a look at the Kahanist movement.. I meant to leave your words in here, but I seem to have deleted them, instead of mine. And I'm tired and I've a lot of zio - shit to wade through, before bed, hmmmm, unless I just give up for tonight. well I'm sure you'll suss what bit the paragraph below, is answering. It's answering your answer to the para above

Another example of you failing to answer a question, asking me one, ( it could be so that saying anything makes it look as though you have answered), and then you have the cheek to accuse me of not answering your questions. Here you might create an impression, that you don't want to. After all, it's zionists that are known masters of that trick.

Quote:
What is the Zionist movement? Are you referring to the Israeli state? Pre 48 Zionists? Those Zionists in Gush Shalom?

As the saying goes, "Jesus wept". . . . . Zionists, they're the ones who support the political entity of zion. There are some so called "Christians", and Rastas who support zion, but it seems that some of those don't mean the same thing as anything of a nation state. The zionists in Gush Shalom, are, from what YOU'VE said, . . . . . .zionists. Of course there are different degrees of complicity. And not all accpomplices desereve to be shat on with the same force. And some of them, just like innocents get bad shit, wrongfully. I suppose that's all the more reason to isolate the aggressors, so that we're not accomplices in their crimes.
.

Quote:
Jewish colonialism of Transjordan started in the late 19th century. You know that there were lots of problems with Jews and Arabs before 1948? Heard of the Arab Revolt of 36-39?

Have you said this kind of stuff to many anti -zionists before ? Have you had the common reply to this kind of thing, already ? Jewish migrations' like that of other peoples has been going on for a long time. And wow, yes , wot a shock, there have been, " lots of problems", with lots of them, Jews included. Were you awake when C18 were stirring it up in Rochdale/Oldham etc. with the media telling us nothing of their tricks, just like with zionists, only they got away with it for decades. If riots, people getting killed were a reason for Jews or zionistst to do to anyone, what zionists have done to Palestinians, then much of Europe would be, "wiped off the map". It's not. And as Jews have had comparatively exellent relations with gentiles in Palestine, before zionists started stirring it up, then your point amounts to a pile of what ?

Quote:
I don't think there is moral equivalence at all. But the fact is that in most colonial type conflicts one part will be stronger. It is not as if the Palestinians did not have F16s and Tanks they wouldn't use them against civilians.

In any case I don't see what your point is. You do realize that this is a communist website? Should communists support nationalists gangs over the solidarity of the Israeli and Palestinian working classes?

Well you've told me more than once, that zionists and their victims are just the same. I suspect that you're not talking about the few, non taxpaying, anti - military service zionist, innocents, not willing to accept the benefits of living in a parasitic zionasty state, ( but surely, then they'd not be zionists, anyway) and the COMPLETE innocents amongst many reactionary, revenge motivated Palestinians. I don't think so. Don't give me more bullshit about those reactionaries the innocents are amongst. They are reactive after zionist aggression. Yes, it's surely possible that Palestinians would use F16's, etc, in the way that zionasties have . . . . . .now . . . . ., after zio -neo -natzi, genocidal aggression. But there is no retalliation, without aggression, no matter how outrageous that retalliation is.
Yes, I have been warned, since I've come on this site, that some people here tend not to understand what's said to them, no matter what. Though I'm slow, and getting slower, with a bit of RSI, and being an old crock, so my injuries heal slowly, (i'm on the verge of typing with one finger, one hand), I have such a lot I want to explore in the way of confronting the apparently impenetrable, after zionists of the more rabid variety, forced us of the streets, with the help
of the police.
Communist site, oh shit, and I thought it was red and black. No one should support nationalist gangs, over such soildarity, WHERE ITS TO BE FOUND. But didn't you know, Israeli working class solidarity with Palestinian victims is overshadowed by the willingness of those in the Israeli working class, willing to fight for a genocidal state, and to pay taxes, without joining anything like the resistance of Matzpun, or the magnificent Yule Cohen Gerstel, even BT'selem, and Gush Shalom, with their zionists. If their minority attitudes were the attitudes of the "Israeli working classes", then yes, you'd have a solid point.. But its not.

John Somebody
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Aug 8 2008 02:09
Joseph K. wrote:
John Somebody wrote:
At last, a voice of reason in a room full of closet zionists.

point to a single thing i or others discussing with you have said that equates to zionism. thanks.

Well, for a start, there's your persistance in referring to Israel, as a, "liberal capitallist democracy", which is suspicious in itself, from someone who appears to talk as though you know something of what you're talking about. But then to persist in that, after it was pointed out to you, that democracy doesn't involve creating an artificial zionist majority, by genocidal acts of ethnic "cleansing", before they can have elections, and ever since. Well, that's part of the zionist agenda, of pretending that Israel has a civilised society, and of covering up war crimes etc. And then for you to talk as though it still hasn't registered indicates something of a zionist mentality, even if you outwardly profess to be anti - nationalist. I'm sure I can dig up some more, and probably will. You're welcome.

John Somebody
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Aug 8 2008 02:54
tigersiskillers wrote:
John Somebody wrote:

At last, a voice of reason in a room full of closet zionists.

Ok, let's keep this simple. Why can't you understand that not blindly championing Palestinian nationalism is not the same as being pro-zionist? It's not a particularly hard concept to grasp. It's not an either/or choice.

I'm probably the only person who'll get this, but this thread reminds me of that Atom and his package song, "the palestinians are not the same thing as the rebel alliance".

But I'm not doing that, I'm championing the victims of zio - neo natzi aggression. And if nationalists are fighting back against such terrorist scum, then my opposition to their nationalism is pretty low on my list of things to fight against.
That anyones opposition to it forms any criticism of any Palestinian victims of zionasty aggression, to the point of accusing someone who doesn't participate in such ignorant foolery, or closet zionism . . . . . . .Well, that looks like closet zionism. Is that simple enough for you ?

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 8 2008 03:25
John Somebody wrote:
Joseph K. wrote:
John Somebody wrote:
At last, a voice of reason in a room full of closet zionists.

point to a single thing i or others discussing with you have said that equates to zionism. thanks.

Well, for a start, there's your persistance in referring to Israel, as a, "liberal capitallist democracy", which is suspicious in itself, from someone who appears to talk as though you know something of what you're talking about. But then to persist in that, after it was pointed out to you, that democracy doesn't involve creating an artificial zionist majority, by genocidal acts of ethnic "cleansing", before they can have elections, and ever since. Well, that's part of the zionist agenda, of pretending that Israel has a civilised society, and of covering up war crimes etc. And then for you to talk as though it still hasn't registered indicates something of a zionist mentality, even if you outwardly profess to be anti - nationalist. I'm sure I can dig up some more, and probably will. You're welcome.

how am i covering up israel's crimes when i've repeatedly and explcitly condemned them? and repeatedly and explicity stated i don't see a liberal capitalist democracy as a legitimate thing - if anything you're pointing out more your illusions in bourgeois democracy here than my alleged 'zionism'. israel does have the basic institutions of a liberal democracy, albeit one in a permanent state of emergency (most democracies have such laws), which is why i've referred to it as 'basically' such. this neither accentuates or attenuates its crimes. did you miss my post talking about in what ways israeli policy may constitute genocide for example? how has it's crimes not registered? just because i'm not silent on the crimes of 'oppressed' nationalists doesn't mean i condone israel.

John Somebody wrote:
But I'm not doing that, I'm championing the victims of zio - neo natzi aggression. And if nationalists are fighting back against such terrorist scum, then my opposition to their nationalism is pretty low on my list of things to fight against.
That anyones opposition to it forms any criticism of any Palestinian victims of zionasty aggression, to the point of accusing someone who doesn't participate in such ignorant foolery, or closet zionism . . . . . . .Well, that looks like closet zionism. Is that simple enough for you ?

ffs. simple-minded perhaps. and please, there is no such thing as a 'natzi,' and you're still ignoring my post on why israel is not nazi.

Rob Ray wrote:
This guy really doesn't listen does he?

Everyone who has been arguing with you here is coming from a very simple position.

Israeli state=bad
Palestinian nationalists=bad

This is not the same thing as zionism, which says

Israeli state=good
Palestinian nationalists=bad

Or you, who appear to think

Israeli state=bad
Therefore Palestinian nationalists=good

Do you have any idea how fucking stupid it sounds to tell people who have said several times that the israeli state is a bad thing that they're closet zionists?

the notion that 'victims' are beyond criticism is, with all due respect, idiotic. especially as it is exactly the zionist argument too - jews are the biggest victims of all, and zionists always pull out 'what about the holocaust?' to silence contemporary critics. al nakba doesn't excuse nationalism, which is always to be rejected because it offers us nothing but division, war and class collaboration.

John Somebody
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Aug 8 2008 03:49
Rob Ray wrote:
This guy really doesn't listen does he?

Everyone who has been arguing with you here is coming from a very simple position.

Israeli state=bad
Palestinian nationalists=bad

This is not the same thing as zionism, which says

Israeli state=good
Palestinian nationalists=bad

Or you, who appear to think

Israeli state=bad
Therefore Palestinian nationalists=good

Do you have any idea how fucking stupid it sounds to tell people who have said several times that the israeli state is a bad thing that they're closet zionists? Or that you start throwing around how much of an anarchist you are when you're talking up a bunch of fucking religious nationalists as the official opposition?

And it's spelled Nazi. Not Natzi. The Israelis aren't Nazis, because if they were they'd be trying to drive themselves into the sea - because that was an integral part of nazi ideology. Not facism necessarily, but nazism. What Israel IS is a capitalist state which is trying to control supplies of water and land and lord it over a subject population, which is quite a big enough can of worms to open already without throwing around inaccurate terminology. They aren't marching people into camps and murdering them en masse, they are doing the same thing as the British, French, Americans and every other imperial power has done at some point in its history and subjugating a specific group of people who they're competing with for assets.

I mean think of the difference in scale - in a six year period the Nazis institutionally (ie. irrespective of combat or collateral kills, this is just unarmed civillians they deliberately gassed or shot for kicks) killed upwards of 11 million people. Israel in the period 2000-2006 - the exact same time scale - managed around 4,900, mostly in combat conditions. They are not the same thing. Not even close. The earlier post had it right about this being similar to apartheid.

PLEASE NOTE THE PRECEDING PARAGRAPH DOES NOT MEAN I SUPPORT THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT - but ffs get some perspective.

You really don't study what you criticise do you. Or, if you do, then what part of the word, "closet" do't you understand?
Much of my reply to your condescending gitness, on nationalism, is already in my reply to Joseph K, in the penultimate post above.
I've an idea how fucking stupid you might want it to sound, if I'm exposing something you don't like.

What part of the prefix, "neo", don't you understand? That zionists haven't murdered 6 million, yet, or that they're not driving imitation Jews, or real ones into the sea, does not detract from the similarities, like being state practitioners of genocide So, what euphemism for natzi would you prefer ?
Do you think genocide is something that only happens in camps and en masse ? Does it not happen untill there are millions dead ? Can you really be that fucking stupid ? or is it more to do with being disingenuous ? What do the words, "Never again", mean to you? Do you really think the Israeli Death Force doesn't shoot unarmed civilians for kicks ?

Apartheid. Really, you mean you didn't know that Apartheid is dependant on its victims, to the effect that their presence, is required. Driving them away = self desruction for an apartheid state. So, of course apartheid exists in Israel. But the Israeli state/socity isn't dependant on it. The state is dependant on the opposite, on the expulsion, the ethnic "cleansing", or the killing of its victims, for being the wrong kind of Semites. And that expulsion could not be happening, without an exodus of refugees. And that could not have been caused without a few massacres here and there. Killing people for what they were, (something other than murderous members of a master race, a few whom, even have permission from their God). That means, come, on, can you guess . . . . .

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 8 2008 04:00
John Somebody wrote:
Well you've told me more than once, that zionists and their victims are just the same. I suspect that you're not talking about the few, non taxpaying, anti - military service zionist, innocents

for the record, are you saying Israeli taxpayers are not 'innocents' for the purposes of say, blowing up a bus full of them? what about british tax payers with regard to Iraq and blowing up tube trains?

John Somebody wrote:
But didn't you know, Israeli working class solidarity with Palestinian victims is overshadowed by the willingness of those in the Israeli working class, willing to fight for a genocidal state, and to pay taxes, without joining anything like the resistance of Matzpun, or the magnificent Yule Cohen Gerstel, even BT'selem, and Gush Shalom, with their zionists. If their minority attitudes were the attitudes of the "Israeli working classes", then yes, you'd have a solid point.. But its not.

so we abandon internationalism whenever it isn't a majority view? ffs.

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 8 2008 04:05
John Somebody wrote:
Zionists, they're the ones who support the political entity of zion.

for the avoidance of any doubt, i am opposed to all states and in favour of stateless communism. i am also opposed to all nationalism, whether of states or the stateless. if you think i'm a zionist, you must also think i'm a neo-nazi. amazing.

John Somebody
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Aug 8 2008 04:10
Joseph K. wrote:
John Somebody wrote:
Joseph K. wrote:
John Somebody wrote:
At last, a voice of reason in a room full of closet zionists.

point to a single thing i or others discussing with you have said that equates to zionism. thanks.

Well, for a start, there's your persistance in referring to Israel, as a, "liberal capitallist democracy", which is suspicious in itself, from someone who appears to talk as though you know something of what you're talking about. But then to persist in that, after it was pointed out to you, that democracy doesn't involve creating an artificial zionist majority, by genocidal acts of ethnic "cleansing", before they can have elections, and ever since. Well, that's part of the zionist agenda, of pretending that Israel has a civilised society, and of covering up war crimes etc. And then for you to talk as though it still hasn't registered indicates something of a zionist mentality, even if you outwardly profess to be anti - nationalist. I'm sure I can dig up some more, and probably will. You're welcome.

how am i covering up israel's crimes when i've repeatedly and explcitly condemned them? and repeatedly and explicity stated i don't see a liberal capitalist democracy as a legitimate thing .

Just a quick one for now, to say you have the answer to that, in the post that you've quoted, directly above yours. Thank you, thanhk you, thank you, for condemning Israel's crimes. That does not detract, reduce, nullify, or spirit away into a fantasy world, with Peter Pan, your other activities, such as pretnding to the world around you, that its a democracy. It 's not. its not even liberal, to its victims. Liberal, oh yes, to those it favours. How the fuck can you persist in calling it liberal let alone democratic. Those are some of thi lies that it dsepends on to prevent the boycott/sanctions needed to destroy the parasite that it is. If you persist in perpetuating those lies, then you're part of the zionist agenda. more later.

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 8 2008 04:25
John Somebody wrote:
That does not detract, reduce, nullify, or spirit away into a fantasy world, with Peter Pan, your other activities, such as pretnding to the world around you, that its a democracy. It 's not. its not even liberal, to its victims. Liberal, oh yes, to those it favours. How the fuck can you persist in calling it liberal let alone democratic. Those are some of thi lies that it dsepends on to prevent the boycott/sanctions needed to destroy the parasite that it is. If you persist in perpetuating those lies, then you're part of the zionist agenda.

I've explained this repeatedly. i don't see bourgeois democracy as a good thing, so me labelling israel democratic is not an endorsement. liberalism's never liberal to it's victims, never has been. of course it's not 'really' democratic, but then no capitalist state is or can be, what with being based on dispossession and all.

John Somebody
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Aug 8 2008 12:07
Joseph K. wrote:
John Somebody wrote:
That does not detract, reduce, nullify, or spirit away into a fantasy world, with Peter Pan, your other activities, such as pretnding to the world around you, that its a democracy. It 's not. its not even liberal, to its victims. Liberal, oh yes, to those it favours. How the fuck can you persist in calling it liberal let alone democratic. Those are some of thi lies that it dsepends on to prevent the boycott/sanctions needed to destroy the parasite that it is. If you persist in perpetuating those lies, then you're part of the zionist agenda.

I've explained this repeatedly. i don't see bourgeois democracy as a good thing, so me labelling israel democratic is not an endorsement. liberalism's never liberal to it's victims, never has been. of course it's not 'really' democratic, but then no capitalist state is or can be, what with being based on dispossession and all.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT IT IS AN ENDORSEMENT, I'M SAYING IT'S A FUCKING LIE. AND YOU THINK THAT YOU HAVE TO REPEAT THINGS., REALLY, YOU, DO YOU ? NO ONE ELSE,? JESUS WEPT !!!!

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Devrim
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Aug 8 2008 12:07

Doesn't Israel have a parliament, and democratic elections? Is it not then a democracy?
Devrim

John Somebody
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Aug 8 2008 12:11
Devrim wrote:
Doesn't Israel have a parliament, and democratic elections? Is it not then a democracy?
Devrim

Fuck me, and I thought that creating an artificial majority, by means of killing or ethnic "cleansing" non zionists would make irrelevant any claims to have democratic elections ? Well doesn't it ?

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Devrim
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Aug 8 2008 12:16

Establishing a state with an artifical majority is exactly what the UK did in the North of Ireland. Is the UK then not a democracy?

Devrim

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 8 2008 12:18

in what way is it a lie? as far as i'm aware, and perhaps some of the israeli posters will correct me if any of this is incorrect, israel has pretty much free multi-party elections, the rule of law (subject to state of emergency, a standard feature of 'democracies' everywhere), reasonable (bourgeois) social freedoms for a fairly religious country (i.e. iirc police cleared right-wing rioters to allow a gay pride event to take place). these seem like the characteristics of a liberal democracy. the fact it is a democracy committing atrocities doesn't really have any bearing on this particular point. i mean i may be ignorant, and i'm willing to stand corrected, but i'm not lying, nor pushing a 'zionist agenda', i just like to see things as they are rather than just sloppily labelling bad things as 'nazi'.

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Bob Savage
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Aug 8 2008 12:31

it seems to be that not only is Mr Somebody naming bad things as 'natzi', but is using the word 'liberal' to mean everything good about the world. puppies and rainbows n oppressed peoples n shit. except, John, the word 'liberal' has many many meanings which can ultimately leave even that old skank Thatcher considered one.

America and Britain are also liberal capitalist democracies, and they've both also killed scores of people in the run up to becoming liberal democracies, and even now whilst they're established liberal democracies. I don't see how the actions of Israel are any different from the actions of the British and American empires (and looking at the native americans, and britain in india, i'd say israel's still got a long way to go before becoming THAT notorious).