Hamas And The Holocaust

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fidel gastro
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May 24 2008 18:38

The other option it seems is to leave it down to the Lebanese state and Fatah, then the Palestinians and the Lebanese are fucked, they are in a much weaker position and the Isrealis take more land, kill more people, oppress more and have their Eretz Israel.

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Tojiah
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May 24 2008 19:16
red and black riot wrote:
So what do we do? Nothing I guess, right? This is my point.

I'll get to that in the end.

red and black riot wrote:
The oppressors are Israel, an ally of the US and though Hamas are not at all perfect, they are the only people who can fight the Israelis just as Hezbollah are the only people who can defend Lebanon from Israel.

Uh, no. The "oppressors" are the ruling class, the Israeli, US, Palestinian and Lebanese bourgeoisie. A Palestinian is as equally dead if he's become collateral damage due to an Israeli airstrike as if he has been caught in Hamas-Fatah crossfire, or shot down when protesting unpaid wages.
Hezbollah is another example of a group which can trace its initial support to Israeli coalition-building against the PLO, by the way, and it's participating in a civil war there right now, killing, you guessed it, fellow Lebanese.

red and black riot wrote:
So I can understand why people want to support these movements, they don't want to sit back and watch Israel do as they wish, they feel that if they had the power they would arm Hamas and Hezbollah and support them so that Israel would be on the defensive.

And Israel on the defensive would be much more oppressive towards its own civilians (which include Arabs, by the way), and much more extreme in its response, and supposing Hamas and/or Hezbollah would gain the upper hand, we'd see hundreds of Israelis being killed on a daily basis. Would your friends respond by supporting the IDF all of a sudden, because they were down in the dirt? That's what a lot of leftists did prior and after 1967, by the way. It's a dead-end ideology, crying for the losing bourgeois until it becomes the winner, after which you cry for whoever they've beaten, world without end, when the real problem is that this isn't the realm where important things happen, Hamas and Hezbollah aren't real enemies of imperialism, they're contenders in the imperialist game, same as Israel or Jordan or Egypt.

red and black riot wrote:
I don't know if thats the right thing to do, it could be a massive mistake but what other choice is there?

What, the only way you can fight the American ruling class is by supporting or opposing criminal gangs in the third world? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you bloody live in the US, you can help organize your own workplace, hit them where it hurts, close to home. You have the additional benefit there of being in a place you know, so it's not as easy to feed you false information and manipulate you into supporting dubious franchises, like all those well-meaning European leftists who supported Israel for decades.

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OliverTwister
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May 24 2008 19:20

If anything's gonna change in the middle east it will be from the example of the egyptian workers spreading.

fidel gastro
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May 25 2008 16:26
tojiah wrote:
red and black riot wrote:
So what do we do? Nothing I guess, right? This is my point.

I'll get to that in the end.

red and black riot wrote:
The oppressors are Israel, an ally of the US and though Hamas are not at all perfect, they are the only people who can fight the Israelis just as Hezbollah are the only people who can defend Lebanon from Israel.

Uh, no. The "oppressors" are the ruling class, the Israeli, US, Palestinian and Lebanese bourgeoisie. A Palestinian is as equally dead if he's become collateral damage due to an Israeli airstrike as if he has been caught in Hamas-Fatah crossfire, or shot down when protesting unpaid wages.
Hezbollah is another example of a group which can trace its initial support to Israeli coalition-building against the PLO, by the way, and it's participating in a civil war there right now, killing, you guessed it, fellow Lebanese.

red and black riot wrote:
So I can understand why people want to support these movements, they don't want to sit back and watch Israel do as they wish, they feel that if they had the power they would arm Hamas and Hezbollah and support them so that Israel would be on the defensive.

And Israel on the defensive would be much more oppressive towards its own civilians (which include Arabs, by the way), and much more extreme in its response, and supposing Hamas and/or Hezbollah would gain the upper hand, we'd see hundreds of Israelis being killed on a daily basis. Would your friends respond by supporting the IDF all of a sudden, because they were down in the dirt? That's what a lot of leftists did prior and after 1967, by the way. It's a dead-end ideology, crying for the losing bourgeois until it becomes the winner, after which you cry for whoever they've beaten, world without end, when the real problem is that this isn't the realm where important things happen, Hamas and Hezbollah aren't real enemies of imperialism, they're contenders in the imperialist game, same as Israel or Jordan or Egypt.

red and black riot wrote:
I don't know if thats the right thing to do, it could be a massive mistake but what other choice is there?

What, the only way you can fight the American ruling class is by supporting or opposing criminal gangs in the third world? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you bloody live in the US, you can help organize your own workplace, hit them where it hurts, close to home. You have the additional benefit there of being in a place you know, so it's not as easy to feed you false information and manipulate you into supporting dubious franchises, like all those well-meaning European leftists who supported Israel for decades.

I live in the the UK actually and always have done.

fidel gastro
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May 25 2008 16:30
guydebordisdead wrote:
red and black riot wrote:
guydebordisdead wrote:
red and black riot wrote:
tojiah wrote:
I would have thought that waging civil war on half the Palestinian population in Gaza would be a bit less popular than the rezoning of a few Mosques. But what would I know?

thats not at all how I remember things but I'm not a Zionist.

Did you just accuse him of being a Zionist?

I'm simply pointing out that thats how Zionists think. He certainly sounds like one. And I can't even say it without questions being asked, pathetic. i don't see why I'm having to explain myself at all. Just waiting now for the jew baiting accusations.

When I saw you were from greenbrigade it raised a flag alright, they support all sort of bizarre anti-working class idiocy over there. Hamas have nothing to do with working class or communist politics. People who cheerlead them are doing the Palestinian working class no favours. In before strawman; fatah are just as bad.

Green Brigade is a brilliant website, a broad one though. I don't particularly like the pics of Guevara and Castro either but it's a very interesting and informative site and thats why I visit it.

petey
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May 25 2008 17:13
red and black riot wrote:
I live in the the UK actually and always have done.

and your answer to the rest of toj's post is...

H
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May 25 2008 19:30
guydebordisdead wrote:

Is it just me, or is the cat on the phone getting ready to do his part to take a very radical stand against sexism?

I can't tell, because that bayonet seems to be on the butt of the gun, I have never seen that before, I don't think. Then again I could just be blind.

yuda
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May 26 2008 01:24

Nah, just a weird angle and a folding stock

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Tojiah
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May 27 2008 19:53
red and black riot wrote:
I live in the the UK actually and always have done.

Well, I'm awfully sorry for having made the horrible mistake of calling a limey a yank. Now, if you will, how about responding to the rest of it?

tojiah wrote:
red and black riot wrote:
So what do we do? Nothing I guess, right? This is my point.

I'll get to that in the end.

red and black riot wrote:
The oppressors are Israel, an ally of the US and though Hamas are not at all perfect, they are the only people who can fight the Israelis just as Hezbollah are the only people who can defend Lebanon from Israel.

Uh, no. The "oppressors" are the ruling class, the Israeli, US, Palestinian and Lebanese bourgeoisie. A Palestinian is as equally dead if he's become collateral damage due to an Israeli airstrike as if he has been caught in Hamas-Fatah crossfire, or shot down when protesting unpaid wages.
Hezbollah is another example of a group which can trace its initial support to Israeli coalition-building against the PLO, by the way, and it's participating in a civil war there right now, killing, you guessed it, fellow Lebanese.

red and black riot wrote:
So I can understand why people want to support these movements, they don't want to sit back and watch Israel do as they wish, they feel that if they had the power they would arm Hamas and Hezbollah and support them so that Israel would be on the defensive.

And Israel on the defensive would be much more oppressive towards its own civilians (which include Arabs, by the way), and much more extreme in its response, and supposing Hamas and/or Hezbollah would gain the upper hand, we'd see hundreds of Israelis being killed on a daily basis. Would your friends respond by supporting the IDF all of a sudden, because they were down in the dirt? That's what a lot of leftists did prior and after 1967, by the way. It's a dead-end ideology, crying for the losing bourgeois until it becomes the winner, after which you cry for whoever they've beaten, world without end, when the real problem is that this isn't the realm where important things happen, Hamas and Hezbollah aren't real enemies of imperialism, they're contenders in the imperialist game, same as Israel or Jordan or Egypt.

red and black riot wrote:
I don't know if thats the right thing to do, it could be a massive mistake but what other choice is there?

What, the only way you can fight the American ruling class is by supporting or opposing criminal gangs in the third world? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you bloody live in the US, you can help organize your own workplace, hit them where it hurts, close to home. You have the additional benefit there of being in a place you know, so it's not as easy to feed you false information and manipulate you into supporting dubious franchises, like all those well-meaning European leftists who supported Israel for decades.

Or if you're from the UK, there's also loads of stuff you can do at home. There have been quite a few strikes going on in a variety of places, labor organizing is on the rise, immigrant scapegoating ain't goin' nowhere, so why are you bothered with how some faraway bourgeois gang is faring?

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jef costello
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May 27 2008 20:32
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Hezbollah are the only people who can defend Lebanon from Israel

Or provide it with an excuse to kill thousands of Lebanese and destroy a large amount of the country's basic infrastructure.

mikus
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May 28 2008 03:27
Weeler wrote:
Bayonet, is it 1910?

No, 2004.

"In 2004, two platoons of Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders in Land Rovers were ambushed by Iraqi insurgents near Majar al-Kabir, south of Amarah. The rescuing force of The Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment bayonet charged the insurgents, killing dozens of them before they retreated, and took only three casualties (all wounded)."

Longer story here.

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gurley
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May 28 2008 03:56
Weeler wrote:
H wrote:
guydebordisdead wrote:

Is it just me, or is the cat on the phone getting ready to do his part to take a very radical stand against sexism?

I can't tell, because that bayonet seems to be on the butt of the gun, I have never seen that before, I don't think. Then again I could just be blind.

Bayonet, is it 1910?

They did a whole series of these. Beautiful art direction here.

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gurley
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May 28 2008 04:00

And these :

redemma
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May 28 2008 05:24

My distaste for Hamas as a political party is temporarily overcome by my respect for their photographer...

OK, so my knowledge of Middle East politics is not the best, so correct me if I make typical Yank mistakes, but...isn't Hamas affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood? Along with the National Islamic Front in Sudan? Last time I checked, Sudan was not *ahem* known for its respect for human rights...why would Hamas be any different if they actually consolidated their power?

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Khawaga
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May 28 2008 08:06
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Hamas affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood

Hamas is the Muslim Brotherhood. Before the first intifada Hamas didn't exist, it was the Muslim Brotherhood. The MB created Hamas (meaning "zeal" to take part in the intifada/be more miiitant in general. The reason they used the Hamas name was to not "taint" the MB name in case they fucked up. During the course of the 1st intifada Hamas became very popular, more so than the MB had ever been, so MB just folded into Hamas.

To be fair to Hamas, compared to Fatah they are much much better. Less corrupt, can deliver social welfare, seen as more effective in resistance (or actually bothering with it) etc etc etc. In many ways Hamas won the election just because Fatah is just too fucked up, not that all Palestinians are die-hard Hamas supporters. But, they're still bourgeoisie.

I don't think the Sudan analogy makes much sense, at least n The ways in which the various Muslim Brotherhoods have developed in the Middle East make comparisons difficult.

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cantdocartwheels
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May 28 2008 09:35
Khawaga wrote:
I don't think the Sudan analogy makes much sense, at least n The ways in which the various Muslim Brotherhoods have developed in the Middle East make comparisons difficult.

I'm not 100% up on middle eastern politics either but would it be fair to say its perhaps comparable to the way in which the pan-arab fascistic ideals of baathism broke down into petty nationalist squabbles once baathist parties took power?

pgh2a
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May 28 2008 10:31

hopefully that x-ray function is turned on.

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Khawaga
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May 28 2008 10:32
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I'm not 100% up on middle eastern politics either but would it be fair to say its perhaps comparable to the way in which the pan-arab fascistic ideals of baathism broke down into petty nationalist squabbles once baathist parties took power?

Well, the big difference is that it is only in Sudan and Palestine (partly) that the Muslim Brotherhood has taken power (well, just Gaza in the case of Palestine). In Sudan they've been in power for nearly two decades - quite stable (regardless of the civil war that raged almost as long). In Sudan they took power through a coup with the aid of the army (although they did enjoy some electoral support prior to that). In Palestine Hamas was elected with lots of popular support (for many though their vote was anti-Fatah/corruption), but lost power in the West Bank after their counter-putsch in Gaza.

In other countries (Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Syria, Kuwait, Israel) the MB are opposition parties in various sizes. In some cases they even support the government, or at least support/pressure governments on culture and vice/virtue issues.

Still, the Baath analogy could be apt. While the MB constantly refers to the 'ummah (the community of faithful that transcends any national border) I'd be very surprised if there attempts to forge a political ummah (in the case of Egypt and Syria there are historical precedents of unity that was not successful at all so I don't think they'd want to try it again).

redemma
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May 28 2008 19:21
pghwob wrote:
hopefully that x-ray function is turned on.

Hamas offers a very good medical plan.

So, is the Muslim Brotherhood completely franchise-based, with different national sections not really sharing anything with each other besides ideology?

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Khawaga
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May 29 2008 08:10
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So, is the Muslim Brotherhood completely franchise-based, with different national sections not really sharing anything with each other besides ideology?

Yep. At least that is my understanding.

The Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood did "start" other groups in Syria, Jordan and Lebanon (as far as I remember, meybe more) back in the day through something like an MB international. I don't know if they have something like this today. Obviously they talk to each other and all that, but they don't have an international central leadership like the Trots (though what is interesting about the Muslim Brothers (or political Islam in general) is that they have borrowed/stolen lots of the vocabulary and organizational form from the Lennies. The MB in Egypt is a Leninist organization.).

fidel gastro
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May 29 2008 19:53

Hey, I'm starting to agree with you guys, this is from the green brigade site:

Today at 4:13pm, saorise wrote:
May 19, 2008, 7:08pm, redclydeside3 wrote:

I know the attack your talking about mate but did they say anything about it being anti semitic or anti Israeli? There is a distinct difference, the Hamas spokesmen may have been praising the attack as his people had their children murdered by the Israeli forces not due to it being Jewish children.

Me:
Thats no exuse, school kids ain't the enemy, they are not responsible for the plight of the Palestinians. I put the article on Libcom.org and got a very negative reaction, or rather Hamas did. The points put across on Libcom were that otiHamas are bunch of bourgeois, conservative fanatics that have no regard for human life and are simlpy compeng to be the dominant capitalist masters in the regin. I found their arguments very interesting too. At first I wasn't sure but now the arguments on Libcom make alot of sense, would advise people to check them out on the News section of the Libcom forums. They put the blame not just on Israel but the surrounding countries that have done nothing to stop the Israelis and they see Israel and Hamas as the just as bad as one another, especially considering that Hamas have killed innocent Palestinians in order to 'fight back.' There has also been articles critical of Hamas on Electronic Intifada due the war waged on the palestinians (mostly ofcourse working class) by that party.

Paranoid, weirdo bloke:
If that wasn't serious it would be laughable"school kids ain't the enemy"--Have you any idea how many kids below school age and above that have been slaughtered by Isreal.
That bit about bourgeois, conservative fanatics is a joke right?.Lets imagine them holed up in the west bank--sometimes without amenities(Isreal control these)dodging the F16 attacks and having such luxurious thoughts--err I don't think so.
I do however know the shite that Zionist forum is spewing --There is a lot of them about.
Try some of these
http://www.alqassam.ps/vb3/index.php

http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/en/Default.aspx

http://www.dflp-palestine.org/index.htm

And then make your mind up and form your own opinions!!

Pepe
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May 29 2008 20:37
gurley wrote:

I'd tap that.

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AndrewF
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May 29 2008 22:03
mikus wrote:
Weeler wrote:
Bayonet, is it 1910?

No, 2004.

"In 2004, two platoons of Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders in Land Rovers were ambushed by Iraqi insurgents near Majar al-Kabir, south of Amarah. The rescuing force of The Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment bayonet charged the insurgents, killing dozens of them before they retreated, and took only three casualties (all wounded)."

Longer story here.

Nice Boys Own tail but the total insurgent casualties for that period are probably better explained by the

Thirty Warrior armoured vehicles, four Challenger main battle tanks, and more than 400 infantry soldiers were supported by RAF Tornado jets and an AC130 Spectre, America’s most deadly night-fighting aerial gunship.

Big Brother
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May 30 2008 09:42

Another post of an emotive misused of words again.

Sigh!*

fidel gastro
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Jun 1 2008 16:06

So, I would like some views regarding Palestine/Israel. We can't favour Fatah as they are extremely corrupt, we can't favour Hamas as they are right-wing, Islamist killers who want power. Is there anything that can be done or any ideas? Obviously we'd like a libertarian movement there but no such thing exists as far as I'm aware.
Have been told by Green Brigade to fuck off and have been labelled a Hun, just for disagreeing with them.

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Devrim
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Jun 1 2008 17:21

Maybe, the question that you should be asking is why you find a need to support any group.

Devrim

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Tojiah
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Jun 1 2008 20:06

Well, you could support the self-organization of migrant workers, thus improving their lives and encouraging more Palestinians and Israelis to do the proletarian thing and run the fuck away from this cesspool.

Or you could organize in your own workplace and community, regarding issues that affect you personally, not a bunch of kikes and rag-heads a quarter of the world away.

I mean, honestly, suppose you would "favor" Fatah. What would you do about it? You couldn't possibly give them more than the money they get out of their brand of imperialist backers. Same goes for Hamas. The most you could do is walk around in protests and actions, showing your support of them, thus cleansing your soul and making yourself feel better, because you're "Doing Something." That way lies either a cushy apparatchik job or disillusion and political burnout.

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Khawaga
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Jun 2 2008 07:15

I agree with Devrim, there is no reason to support any group, unless they're working class. If you feel the need to do something you could go to Palestine with the International Solidarity Movement or hang out with the Israeli Anarchists Against the Wall. ISM and AAW do support local struggles against the occupation and these struggles are worthwile supoorting IMO.

ffaker
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Jun 2 2008 12:52
tojiah wrote:
I would have thought that [Hamas] waging civil war on half the Palestinian population in Gaza...

That's inaccurate. It is now mainstream common knowledge that it was the Abbas-Dahlan gang that launched the civil war in Gaza (following US orders). The PA has a long history of torturing and assassinating its opponents (going back to a near civil war against Hamas in the mid-ninties), often covered up as "work accidents" and often in cooperation with Israel (see the late Tanya Reinhart's excellent "Israel/Palestine: How to End End the War of 1948"). However, it is also clear that once it took over direct control of Gaza (as a side-affect of their put down of the failed US funded coup) Hamas took the opportunity to reciprocate abuses. As such is it perfectly valid to criticise Hamas for these abuses and it is clearly silly to say that someone doing so is necessarily a a Zionist (otherwise the Palestinian left --such as it is -- is Zionist).

Good analysis on this here: http://heathlander.wordpress.com/2008/03/04/engineering-a-coup/

tojiah wrote:
Are you aware that Hamas wouldn't have gotten to where it was a decade and a half ago had it not been for Israel's support for it as an opposition to PLO influence in the West Bank and Gaza? ... If you ask me, both Hamas and Fatah have proven themselves ... to be mere bourgeois criminal gangs; that does not detract from the fact that the Israeli siege of Gaza is appalling (though, in all honesty, the blame for that should be shared with Egypt's rulers as well)

All very important points. Again with the caveat that Egypt is as much a US client as Israel. Add Saudi Arabia and Jordan here as well as Egypt. Both were instrumental in training and supplying the Dahlan-US gang in Gaza.

australianirishcatholic wrote:
I recently saw a documentary on Hamas. They have become unpopular with their authoritarian policies on the Palestinians, which have included barring worship outside of some Mosques in dealing with political issues. I suggest you look for the documentary it if your interested in Hamas/Palestine.

Was that the one reporting from Gaza on Channel 4? That was quite a good doc, with many valid and fair critisisms of Hamas. However, I think it very telling that such a docu criticising the Abbas-Dahlan gang within Fateh would never get made, being a tool of the US as they are.

It's important in reference to this to differentiate between the Fateh movement as a whole and the Abbas-Dahlan gang. It was the latter that launched the failed Gaza coup against the elected government (as well as the successful West Bank coup against the elected government), while the former is chaotic and varied (and many of their armed fighters actually refused to fight against Hamas when they put down the Abbas-Dahlan-US-Jordan-Saudi coup in Gaza -- in the process conveniently taking control).

Khawaga wrote:
Quote:
Probaably because it has been allowed to get away with evrything you can imagine since 1948.

While Israel has certainly gotten away with lots and lots of really bad stuff, who has let them get away with it? Other fucking states. And I am not just talking about the US and the UK here. The Arab states, in particular those that border Israel, have allowed Israel to get away with all kinds of things since 1948. And they've been ding their share of shit as well ... Or for that matter Jordan and Lebanon's horrific treatment of Palestinian refugees...

VERY true. Although I would add that said Arab states were and are often (though by no means always) acting out US regional policy in doing so (this is not a mitigating factor).

Khawaga wrote:
Quote:
Hamas affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood

Hamas is the Muslim Brotherhood. Before the first intifada Hamas didn't exist, it was the Muslim Brotherhood. The MB created Hamas (meaning "zeal" to take part in the intifada/be more miiitant in general. The reason they used the Hamas name was to not "taint" the MB name in case they fucked up. During the course of the 1st intifada Hamas became very popular, more so than the MB had ever been, so MB just folded into Hamas.

To be fair to Hamas, compared to Fatah they are much much better. Less corrupt, can deliver social welfare, seen as more effective in resistance (or actually bothering with it) etc etc etc. In many ways Hamas won the election just because Fatah is just too fucked up, not that all Palestinians are die-hard Hamas supporters. But, they're still bourgeoisie.

While very much in agreement with your analysis of Hamas here I would add the following refinements: as I understand it, the Gaza MB had its arm twisted by its young militants to form an actively resistant group. The energy released by the first intifada meant that, had Sheikh Ahmed Yassin not acquiesced in the creation of the new front group/splinter, many young activists would probably have defected to the Islamic Jihad, or even secular groups (the Fronts and the Communists, and later Jihad and Fateh were active in the intifada's UNL from the beginning).

Interesting about Sudan. I'd never knew the the govt there were MB in origination, but it certainly makes sense from what little I know about Sudan.

tojiah wrote:
encouraging more Palestinians and Israelis to do the proletarian thing and run the fuck away from this cesspool.

??? that's just weird. How exactly is it "the proletarian thing" to leave their homes? Isn't that just the prime aim of the Zionists? Am I misunderstanding you?

Khawaga wrote:
If you feel the need to do something you could go to Palestine with the International Solidarity Movement or hang out with the Israeli Anarchists Against the Wall. ISM and AAW do support local struggles against the occupation and these struggles are worthwile supoorting IMO.

Khawaga, on the other hand is totally right here (as usual).

ffaker
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Jun 2 2008 12:56

p.s. The pictures are awesome. In fairness, I'm pretty sure these were taking by a talented, hooked-up freelance Gazawe, rather than an official Hamas photographer.