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ALF to target students?!

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powertotheimagi...
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Feb 1 2006 18:45

Firstly people who torture animals do graduate to doing it to humans, there have been many studies into this and I can source out dozens of reports and a shortened form with tons of evidence for it.

AR activists, well most, don't 'place' animals above humans, they arn't looking to slot people/ animals into carefully boxed ideas, they want to stop the harm caused predomently and in some cases look for better ways for humanity to operate without causing harm to humans or animals (i.e. through vivisection). Its not as simple as 'putting a parrot before a child.'

What fasinates or interests you shouldn't always be legalised.

LR you focus on socio-political wellbeing of people, thats important I know, but there is also a health, family, emotional based issue, these link into socio-economic issues, but not always and should not be placed somehow 'below' economic issues.

There may not be deep philiosophical debate on this thread, but there is some philosophical debate.

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Lazy Riser
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Feb 1 2006 19:07

Hi

Quote:
Firstly people who torture animals do graduate to doing it to humans, there have been many studies into this and I can source out dozens of reports and a shortened form with tons of evidence for it.

Obviously, they are hostile people. There are already lots of nice laws against animal torture, we already devote enough energy to stopping it. DWP staff torture Benefit Claimants, where do you find time to be an animal activist with that going on?

Quote:
AR activists, well most, don't 'place' animals above humans, they arn't looking to slot people/ animals into carefully boxed ideas, they want to stop the harm caused predomently and in some cases look for better ways for humanity to operate without causing harm to humans or animals (i.e. through vivisection). Its not as simple as 'putting a parrot before a child.

How does that help your argument that rights exist and animals have them because you think so?

Quote:
What fasinates or interests you shouldn't always be legalised.

We just want different things, I want economic security and political liberty and you want to give animals pleasure at human expense. What working class problem are you confronting with this political outlook?

Quote:
LR you focus on socio-political wellbeing of people, thats important I know, but there is also a health, family, emotional based issue, these link into socio-economic issues, but not always and should not be placed somehow 'below' economic issues.

It is you that have introduced the separation of the economic and that inexplicable sense of well-being, not I.

Love

LR

powertotheimagi...
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Feb 1 2006 20:08

The fact that near ALL serial killers, rapists, even one of murderers have hurt animals in their past- especially in their early/mid teenage years. I doubt alot that DWP staff 'torture' claimants, they don't stick pins in them do they or am I missing totally something that goes on in the dark corridors of the DWP?

I didn't mention posisting animals and humans in a sort of scale to defend the 'rights view', it was a reply to Jack.

Talking of the rights view, I asked if people/ animals don't have rights, what DO they have that means they should be protected? LR I have yet to receive a full answer from you on this.

LR, you've discussed fine till now, but don't grab at straws- ''I want economic security and political liberty and you want to give animals pleasure at human expense.''- wtf is that all about? When have I ONCE 'put' animals above humans, I am involved in political struggles dosen't mean I shouldn't be involved in AR. Don't side-step the AR issues at hand here by saying its a major division from political activism, it isn't for me and many I know.

I discussed what is also important to personal wellbeing and health alongside socio-economic interests. I never divided them, you just didn't mention anything that isn't in any way directly linked to socio-economic ideas for happiness.

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Lazy Riser
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Feb 1 2006 20:19

Hi

Quote:
I doubt alot that DWP staff 'torture' claimants, they don't stick pins in them do they or am I missing totally something that goes on in the dark corridors of the DWP?

I am telling you that the DWP starve people in pain back to work. If you think not, then you’re discrediting your position.

Quote:
Talking of the rights view, I asked if people/ animals don't have rights, what DO they have that means they should be protected? LR I have yet to receive a full answer from you on this.

Their utility. Themselves. Their special box of vibrators.

You should be involved in AR. You’re no good for the working class.

Love

LR

powertotheimagi...
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Feb 1 2006 20:24

I know about how the DWP work, some people I know deal with them and have stories of complaints, its not like I know nothing of any worth on them. I don't feel i'm discrediting my posistion, but if you feel I am, please tell me why.

Their utility? Whats that? If my analysis of my own view is anything to go by, i.e. expanding on it (something you don't) I feel i'd be of some worth to 'a class'. Last night when I started asking for an expansion on your own posistion you started making joking posts- avoiding the question?

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Lazy Riser
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Feb 1 2006 20:29

Hi

Quote:
I don't feel i'm discrediting my posistion, but if you feel I am, please tell me why

You don’t think the DWP torture people. They do. You are being reactionary. Reactionary positions discredit their advocates.

Quote:
Their utility? Whats that? If my analysis of my own view is anything to go by, i.e. expanding on it (something you don't) I feel i'd be of some worth to 'a class'

I take that back. Ask me about their special box of vibrators instead.

Love

LR

powertotheimagi...
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Feb 1 2006 20:33

I don;t think the DWP torture people in the sense proto-serial killers do, i.e. stick pins in them. People in the DWP treat some claimants terribly, but do they torture them?

You don't propose your own view, not all rights center on vibes.

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Lazy Riser
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Feb 1 2006 20:43

Hi

The DWP torture people. You need to accept that....

Quote:
1.

a. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.

b. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.

2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.

3. Something causing severe pain or anguish.

Love

LR

powertotheimagi...
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Feb 1 2006 20:53

The DWP don't physically torture people, i'm not defendingthem, but the DWP office I saw wasen';t anything like the insides of a Iraqi prison.

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Lazy Riser
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Feb 1 2006 20:54

Hi

You need to accept that the DWP torture working class people.

Love

LR

powertotheimagi...
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Feb 1 2006 20:59

Torture? Like the American troops to Iraqi captives?

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Lazy Riser
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Feb 1 2006 21:00

Hi

No, like a lab technician experiments on a rat.

Love

LR

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jef costello
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Feb 2 2006 00:19
Lazy Riser wrote:
Hi

No, like a lab technician experiments on a rat.

Love

LR

I don't know about that LR lab rat experiments at least have a purpose.

Although as the money maker surely you should back getting people back to work?

ALso is it not reformist to criticise DWP people for acting in this way?

Love

JC

dom
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Feb 2 2006 17:31
Quote:
Hi

Quote:

I doubt alot that DWP staff 'torture' claimants, they don't stick pins in them do they or am I missing totally something that goes on in the dark corridors of the DWP?

I am telling you that the DWP starve people in pain back to work. If you think not, then you’re discrediting your position.

The DWP may be harsh on people but the staff do not tourture people they are not much better of that the people they supposedly touture. Some may even be former claiments.

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Lazy Riser
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Feb 2 2006 18:58

Hi

Quote:
The DWP may be harsh on people but the staff do not tourture people they are not much better of that the people they supposedly touture. Some may even be former claiments.

These are two separate points, yet here, presented as though they are related. Just because someone is poor or some kind of “victim” does not render them incapable of torture.

Let me tell you, being kept under surveillance and having your benefit cut off when your boyfriend stays the night is torture. Being clinically depressed and being forced to work on commission selling double glazing by cold calling people or soliciting outside B&Q is torture. Being called into an interview, under caution, and having your life dissected for £56 a week which you have to wait for 6 months to receive is torture.

These practises are very much routine operations, and as a Civil Adviser I see them all the time. You have my word...

Quote:
1.

a. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.

b. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.

2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.

3. Something causing severe pain or anguish.

Regardless, this distracting sub discussion regarding torture only serves to discredit the anti-working class victim mentality and emotional over-identification with “innocent” animals that lies at the root of the appalling idea that lab technicians require activist intervention, but DWP snoopers do not.

Let me say it one more time for those who only ever read the last post in a thread…

Animals are not the issue. Working Class Autonomy is the goal. The notion that "animal rights" has a positive role to play in the development of a working class political theory capable of toppling capitalism and moving us all forward is wholly reactionary and continues to earn us nothing but defeat.

Love

LR

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JDMF
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Feb 2 2006 19:36

I agree with LR.

I mean because i am vegan, i can't be a good workplace organiser. Also because i think the curret treatment of animals in factory farms is wrong, this forces me to ignore workers struggles. I mean, there is only so much your brain can take, and you have to pick and choose which one is it: working class autonomy, or having any consideration for non-human animals.

roll eyes

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Lazy Riser
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Feb 2 2006 19:39

Hi

I love you JDMF. We have banned fox hunting, we haven't banned DWP snooping. Why do you think that is?

Love

LR

powertotheimagi...
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Feb 2 2006 19:41

They may be to seperate examples, but you are saying 'torture', someone who is poor or not may be tortured, but I don't see how the examples you give are torture. The examples you give are forms of repression, and often severe, I can't see how you can call them torture. A friends mum had a benefit cut of as she was doing a part time job while he was at school, I didn't see them tortured.

Again, you try to compare AR's to human rights, I have NEVER tried to do that, you are trying to push any AR ideas into some sort of ideal placed above humans? I have never done that, nor plan to.

Animals are an issue. They may not link up in explict ways with political causes but they are an issue, its not reactionary at all.

Oh, and LR, im still waiting for you to explain the question i've been asking for ages about rights, i'm beginning to think it will never arrive....

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JDMF
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Feb 2 2006 19:46
Lazy Riser wrote:
We have banned fox hunting, we haven't banned DWP snooping. Why do you think that is?

because "we" haven't banned anything.

powertotheimagi...
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Feb 2 2006 19:47

BTW, fox hunting is far from over.

I met this attitude with others I knew to, they seemed to think political activism had to be TOTALLY seperate from animal activism, no mixing or anything, thats an attitude I get from you to LR.

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Lazy Riser
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Feb 2 2006 19:54

Hi

Quote:
Oh, and LR, im still waiting for you to explain the question i've been asking for ages about rights, i'm beginning to think it will never arrive....

I cannot explain the question you've been asking for ages, I do not know what it is. I exist only to advance the following position, so don't bait me...

Quote:
Animals are not the issue. Working Class Autonomy is the goal. The notion that "animal rights" has a positive role to play in the development of a working class political theory capable of toppling capitalism and moving us all forward is wholly reactionary and continues to earn us nothing but defeat.

Let us examine first JDMF’s counter…

JDMF wrote:
I mean because i am vegan, i can't be a good workplace organiser. Also because i think the curret treatment of animals in factory farms is wrong, this forces me to ignore workers struggles. I mean, there is only so much your brain can take, and you have to pick and choose which one is it: working class autonomy, or having any consideration for non-human animals

In what way does his sarcasm contradict my position, let’s negate it to decode it’s true meaning…

not(JDMF) wrote:
i am vegan, i can be a good workplace organiser. Also i think the curret treatment of animals in factory farms is wrong, and I do not ignore workers struggles. The imagination of the working class is all powerful we can happily consider animal welfare within a context of working class autonomy

Which is true. But why the sarcasm? Animal Rights are as already as relevant to Working Class Autonomy as they need to be, you may as well try and add Botanical Studies to the agenda. Some people do you know.

Quote:
because "we" haven't banned anything.

Conceded.

Love

LR

powertotheimagi...
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Feb 2 2006 20:01

I just said the question as I got fed up of C and P'ing the same thing over and over to no avail.

What i'm saying, and you can't seem to grasp, is you can be involved in both AR and political activity, there isn't a massive marker line drawn down the middle seperating both. I have not once said animals are above humans, I do not 'place' animals and humans into neat boxes.

You seem to think because I advance a slight AR posistion I am a fuming anti-political advocate, who disagrees with all political activity unless there is a SHAC flag flying somewhere, I know you see in my posts that idea LR and maybe JDMF to, if you do I either must write really confusing posts, or you mistook me (either by accident or on purpose).

Fox hunting isn't banned. There was a motion passed against it, but it goes on every week during hunting season.

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Lazy Riser
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Feb 2 2006 20:12

Hi

Quote:
What i'm saying, and you can't seem to grasp, is you can be involved in both AR and political activity, there isn't a massive marker line drawn down the middle seperating both. I have not once said animals are above humans, I do not 'place' animals and humans into neat boxes.

That is a statement, not a question. I don’t disagree with your statement. I’m surprised you think I can’t grasp it. Your tone’s a bit aggressive.

Quote:
You seem to think because I advance a slight AR posistion I am a fuming anti-political advocate, who disagrees with all political activity unless there is a SHAC flag flying somewhere, I know you see in my posts that idea LR and maybe JDMF to, if you do I either must write really confusing posts, or you mistook me (either by accident or on purpose).

It may seem that way, but it is all in your mind.

Quote:
Fox hunting isn't banned. There was a motion passed against it, but it goes on every week during hunting season.

I’m sorry, I shouldn’t have distracted you with it. Show a little mercy.

Love

LR

powertotheimagi...
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Feb 2 2006 20:22

I'm not angry, if I have olives i'm not angry, but when it appears someone is either avoiding the Q's you ask and/or twisting what you say, it can piss you of abit.

It appears from alot of your posts LR that you look either to ignore AR activity or to completly seperate it from political activity.

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Lazy Riser
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Feb 2 2006 20:39

Hi

Quote:
avoiding the Q's

I think that’s unfair. Regardless, say I did, why does that make you right?

Quote:
twisting what you say

All in your mind, I assure you.

Quote:
It appears from alot of your posts LR that you look either to ignore AR activity or to completly seperate it from political activity.

I ignore or separate it less than some activities, such as stamp collecting. I was going to say train spotting for comic effect, but that’s marginally more relevant.

Love

LR

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Lazy Riser
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Feb 2 2006 20:43

Hi

Anyway, explain to us some examples of Animal Rights Activism you'd condone. Would you inconvenience me in any way? (assuming my humanitarian qualities are already above average).

Love

LR

powertotheimagi...
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Feb 2 2006 21:44

I see the most important issues as being vivisection, followed by factory farming and meat eating. Vivisection needs to stop, and so that is the one I focus on predomently.

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jef costello
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Feb 2 2006 21:48
powertotheimagination wrote:

You seem to think because I advance a slight AR posistion I am a fuming anti-political advocate, who disagrees with all political activity unless there is a SHAC flag flying somewhere, I know you see in my posts that idea LR and maybe JDMF to, if you do I either must write really confusing posts, or you mistook me (either by accident or on purpose).

Your posts can be a little hard to follow at times, it's not always easy when you're passionate about something. JDMF is unlikely to make a snap judgement as he spends a lot of time responding calmly and sensibly when he is being baited over AR.

I don't honestly believe AR is particularly relevant to class struggle, but it is a way of accustoming people to challenging govt. etc. so it isn't incompatible. Also I agree with your posts about the propensity of people who are violent towards animals to graduate onto humans (although that argument could be used to suppress animal cruelty without negating LR's position)

Don't let this debate frustrate you, it emerges every few weeks, usually because someone attacks AR (usually on a fairly slim pretext) but don't worry. Make sure to have a good look at some of the other threads, a lot of them are really good.

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Lazy Riser
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Feb 2 2006 22:17

Hi

I'd be interested to read descriptions of some real examples of Animal Rights Activism that the AR comrades condone as pro-working class. And not for nefarious purposes either, well not that nefarious.

Love

LR

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Rob Ray
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Feb 2 2006 22:27

Well there's always the aspect of cutting down on those bloody horses that shit all over the roads and drive the price of land up cos they need to be kept (obviously) on prime sites? Don't do a lick of work those bloody things if they aren't carrying some aristo fucker around.

If only there was some kind of toffbusting initiative, that'd sort it.

twisted red n black star grin Mr. T twisted