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ALF to target students?!

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Lazy Riser's picture
Lazy Riser
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Jan 31 2006 21:32

Hi

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The culture of money over the protection of others, humans or non-humans.

Would you ban fishing?

Love

LR

powertotheimagi...
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Jan 31 2006 21:37

Whats proper incentives?

powertotheimagi...
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Jan 31 2006 21:39

I disagree with fishing, I don't fish, but I do not campaign against fishing, I feel the issue of vivisection is one of key importance.

powertotheimagi...
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Jan 31 2006 21:59

Well if their is a child being abused, that is someone violating that childs right not to be abused either physically, mentally or sexually, as someone else is doing it for their own pleasure. If the child dosen't have the right not to be abused, what do they have that does not let someone abuse them, that is what i'm asking.

Bascially- if you agree that the child should not be abused (and child abuse isn't always sexual), but you also believe that that child does not have rights, what does the child have that makes it wrong the abuse them? Thats the question i'm asking of Jack and LR.

powertotheimagi...
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Jan 31 2006 22:12

So I can't say I support the view of rights? You don't say why people should be protected, I didn't ask the Q to be a high minded philosopher but to ask why you think people should be protected without rights. I would seriously like to know. I cannot see how the idea of an 'abstract concept' to protect individuals is needed, rights isn't an abstract concept in its basic form, it can be, but alot can be. If you have criticised the rights view so much, at least propose your own.

Lazy Riser's picture
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Jan 31 2006 22:19

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what does the child have that makes it wrong the abuse them?

Student union card.

Love

LR

powertotheimagi...
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Jan 31 2006 22:19

Babies don't have student cards. So fried babies all round.

Lazy Riser's picture
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Jan 31 2006 22:22

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what does the child have that makes it wrong the abuse them?

The protection of the working class. We like to keep an eye on upcoming talent.

Love

LR

Lazy Riser's picture
Lazy Riser
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Jan 31 2006 22:23

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what does the child have that makes it wrong the abuse them?

Very small genitals.

Love

LR

powertotheimagi...
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Jan 31 2006 22:24

I will still stick arrogantly to the rights view until someone can prove to me otherwise. If someone convinces me otherwise, i'll look otherwise, but in all this debate I haven't changed my views that much.

Lazy Riser's picture
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Jan 31 2006 22:25

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what does the child have that makes it wrong the abuse them?

The love of the sweet baby Jesus.

Love

LR

Lazy Riser's picture
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Jan 31 2006 22:26

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but in all this debate I haven't changed my views that much.

No, but you have discredited them.

Love

LR

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Jan 31 2006 22:29
Jack wrote:
A big part of this is supporting and protecting those who need help or are vulnerable in some way.

exactly, which is why i'm vegan.

Lazy Riser's picture
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Jan 31 2006 22:29

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Animals don't need your help, they need killing.

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LR

Lazy Riser's picture
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Jan 31 2006 22:38

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Being a vegan as no more politically progressive than bestiality.

Love

LR

powertotheimagi...
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Jan 31 2006 22:40

So it is someones inclusion in society that makes them worthy of protection? Or is it there productibility in a society that makes it worth looking after them?

Either or, I don't care what side philosophically people lie on, if they agree with a view for treating animals AND people better and working towards a better sort of society thats fine with me.

And with that i'll end for the night, done like 60 posts on it, thats enough without looking like a real board geek.

Lazy Riser's picture
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Jan 31 2006 22:44

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Capitalism treats animals just fine. It treats Incapacity Benefit claimants less well.

Love

LR

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Jan 31 2006 22:48

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Old people are productive. Don't most of us want to die before we become completely useless? (No "you are" posts please).

Love

LR

Lazy Riser's picture
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Jan 31 2006 22:56

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i'm a meat eater but it's pretty obvious that there is something very fucked up about the factory farming of animals, the reduction of living feeling creatures to objects on a conveyor belt, stuck in conditions completely alien to their natural state.

I just don’t care. I’m happy with current animal welfare arrangements. If you want better ones, fair enough, do a little campaign if you like.

Quote:
Surely in a post capitalist society we would want to reduce animal suffering, why inflict suffering that is unessecary

For pleasure. Perhaps you like your meat “gamey”.

Quote:
Plus we will have to cut down on meat consumption, so factory farming will not be desirable, plus who wants to work in an industrial farm?

Nice positioning. That’ll really take off big style, put it in a pamphlet and hand it out at the next DWP picket line.

Love

LR

Fatty
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Jan 31 2006 23:02

I had a discussion with someone about this earlier.

Disregard rights just a second.

Surely complete disregard of another ones life omits any respect whatsoever?

powertotheimagi...
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Jan 31 2006 23:04

Whats all this discussion of hurting others for pleasure, like a S and M community, 'I don't care' type attitute to animal abuse is turning a blind eye to obvious cruelty.

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jef costello
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Jan 31 2006 23:06

This thread will encourage newcomers to post.

Inflicting pain and suffering on fellow members of society for personal pleasure is wrong and damaging to society.

Even Hitler had to rein in his best murderers because they were suffering psychological damage from killing untermenschen.

People who torture animals for pleasure usually graduate onto doing the same to people. In this way society suffers if people are allowed to torture animals.

Is that enough for you Lazy?

powertotheimagination: if you aren't enjoying it give up, because Jack and LR are enjoying it.

powertotheimagi...
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Jan 31 2006 23:09

Its encouraged newcomers to post, deep philosophical debate IS interesting after all, just need the tweed now.

I'm not enjoying it, I don't post for enjoyment I post to discuss, if they enjoy it then thats fine for them, maybe its a form of machoism.

Fatty
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Jan 31 2006 23:10

Well that's what I was getting onto. Even though it's done to animals (which are obviously considered as a lower form of life to the extent of complete disrespect) it ends up reflecting on you personally.

powertotheimagi...
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Jan 31 2006 23:14

specism?

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Jan 31 2006 23:20
powertotheimagination wrote:
Its encouraged newcomers to post, deep philosophical debate IS interesting after all, just need the tweed now.

Let me know if you found any on this thread.

note: if you can't spell a word people then don't use it!

Quote:
Well that's what I was getting onto. Even though it's done to animals (which are obviously considered as a lower form of life to the extent of complete disrespect) it ends up reflecting on you personally.

Do you mean in the sense of appearance to others?

I was going for the psychological damage caused/signified by causing pain and how this puts society at risk.

Anyone who deliberately hurts a being capable of suffering has got a problem.

Bear baiting is not human need Jack, it's human desire. Human desire shouldn't really be a reason to cause suffering, just take it out on an inanimate object. You've got a pillow case at your place that's had someone take out their frustration on it smile

Lazy Riser's picture
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Jan 31 2006 23:27

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Inflicting pain and suffering on fellow members of society for personal pleasure is wrong and damaging to society.

I wouldn’t say wrong, more cheeky. Whether or not it’s damaging depends on whose doing the suffering.

Quote:
People who torture animals for pleasure usually graduate onto doing the same to people.

The same can be said for those who don’t.

Quote:
society suffers if people are allowed to torture animals.

Absolutely. Just think of the environmental health issues for a start. I’ll happily tolerate bans on bear baiting and blood sports, even eating meat, for the civilising effect of having such unseemly practises stopped.

Quote:
its a form of machoism.

I have spent the day helping people stop bailiffs from taking their things. I take authentic pleasure in debunking the notion that “more animal welfare” has any part to play in a viable political programme. The only issue is the economic security and political liberty of the working class, attempting to incorporate the interests of other classes, let alone other species, is reactionary.

Love

LR

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Jan 31 2006 23:39

Jack you have supported causing pain to animals, so don't give me that. All that stuff about bear baiting etc.

I lumped you and Lazy together based on the punishment ptti was taking, not a reflection on your relative arguments.

Vivisection is often not very much use, when it is it's worth doing and I support it, even though I find it personally distasteful.

Although if the ALF put as much effort into revolution then we'd have loads of bourgeoisie to torture and experiment upn and no one would have to feel guilty at all. 8)

Lazy Riser's picture
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Jan 31 2006 23:50

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It's well unfair to lump me in with LR! I have sensible arguments and am being polite

My arguments are sensible, and I am being very civil. Which particular argument do you, Oh Jack, see as being particularly non-sensible?

Love

LR

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Feb 1 2006 10:29

hear hear!