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ALF to target students?!

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powertotheimagi...
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Jan 30 2006 23:06

There is the example of how medical science often dosen't want to progress. In the late 19th century/ early 20th century if someone had breast cancer, for a small lump they removed the whole breast. One scientist proposed that you could remove the small lump without the whole breast, the other scientists took this as a sheer shock and horror, and he was expelled from his medical socieites. Now his methods are accepted as what to do in the case of some forms of breast cancer. This one example shows how the medical community is often so entrenched in old ideas it does not want to move forward and criticises heavily those who do.

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jef costello
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Jan 30 2006 23:06
John. wrote:
Jef Costello wrote:
Do I really need to define working class here ffs John.

The socialist definition is someone who doesn't own capital and so sells their labour to survive.

That obviously doesn't apply to what you've said here, so I assume you're using the Polly Toynbee/Guardian definition? In which case yeah I think you should define it.

I think people whose parent's own capital and who are not selling their labour do count as m/c.

Are you honestly defending oxford university as a place populated by the w/c?

A student who is not from a w/c background cannot be described as w/c unless they are selling their labour to survive. Which oxford students are not.

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Steven.
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Jan 30 2006 23:09
Jef Costello wrote:
I think people whose parent's own capital and who are not selling their labour do count as m/c.

Are you honestly defending oxford university as a place populated by the w/c?

A student who is not from a w/c background cannot be described as w/c unless they are selling their labour to survive. Which oxford students are not.

What so all students at oxford are the children of capitalists/landowners/industrialists?

Do they all wear monacles and top hats and smoke cigars too? grin

powertotheimagi...
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Jan 30 2006 23:10

Animals are expensive to buy yes, but they are cheaper then some other forms of medical testing. Also the labs themselves wouldn't patent a 'fake dog skin' they would buy it of a company that sells fake dog skin or whatever. Also using animals gives some protection to companies when the people who suffer side effects come back asking why they do.

There are hundreds of replacements, and thankfully many, many are in use now.

Anti-vivisectors arn't weird anti-science, please that may be some, but there is also some political activists who arn't...lets say the most empirical in their analysis. Please don't gloss a whole movement by some. If it is all so anti-science what about the thousands of scientists that are anti-vivisection, including one of Italy's top biomedical scientists.

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Steven.
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Jan 30 2006 23:10
powertotheimagination wrote:
There is the example of how medical science often dosen't want to progress.

Ok I'll admit there is an inherent conservatism in some areas of science, but not enough to keep useless vivisection going.

Anyway you got a response to this:

Quote:
Money? Testing on artificial substances would be just as profitable (in fact probably much more profitable than live testing cos you can't patent a dog but you can fakedogskin113 TM).
Fatty
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Jan 30 2006 23:11

Well if ALF would hurry up and invent a time machine so they can travel to the future and retrieve all futuristic medicines and practices; then we don't have to torture the animals anymore!

Grace
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Jan 30 2006 23:12
Jef Costello wrote:
John. wrote:
Jef Costello wrote:
Do I really need to define working class here ffs John.

The socialist definition is someone who doesn't own capital and so sells their labour to survive.

That obviously doesn't apply to what you've said here, so I assume you're using the Polly Toynbee/Guardian definition? In which case yeah I think you should define it.

I think people whose parent's own capital and who are not selling their labour do count as m/c.

Are you honestly defending oxford university as a place populated by the w/c?

A student who is not from a w/c background cannot be described as w/c unless they are selling their labour to survive. Which oxford students are not.

You can't generalise like that. Seriously. It's not our fault we're not allowed to work, mostly if people had the choice then they would. Besides, the majority of people I've met here have parents who, while they may not have stereotypical 'working class' jobs, are certainly not the owners of capital.

powertotheimagi...
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Jan 30 2006 23:13

''Well if ALF would hurry up and invent a time machine so they can travel to the future and retrieve all futuristic medicines and practices; then we don't have to torture the animals anymore!''

Well could people stop making sly comments and debate the issue properly??

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JDMF
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Jan 30 2006 23:14
John. wrote:
Anyway you got a response to this:
Quote:
Money? Testing on artificial substances would be just as profitable (in fact probably much more profitable than live testing cos you can't patent a dog but you can fakedogskin113 TM).

No. Changing a reseach paradigm is very expensive. Only the external pressure and governments small handouts have made the small number of "replacement" (as in replacement for animal model) testing available. The R&D work done in this field is unfortunately so expensive that private capital doesn't want any of it.

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jef costello
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Jan 30 2006 23:14
John. wrote:
Do they all wear monacles and top hats and smoke cigars too? grin

You know that that is what the monkeys they torture do in the wild John. If you aren't going to do me the courtesy of reading my posts then I don't really see the point of having these discussions grin

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Steven.
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Jan 30 2006 23:14
Grace wrote:
You can't generalise like that. Seriously. It's not our fault we're not allowed to work, mostly if people had the choice then they would. Besides, the majority of people I've met here have parents who, while they may not have stereotypical 'working class' jobs, are certainly not the owners of capital.

I don't think you have to justify yourself grace. I know people who went to oxford. The type of people who go to oxford are intellectuals. People who say there are no "w/c" (even using the meaningless cultural definitions) people there are just being elitist and patronising cos of course w/c people are all stupid and don't like books/learning/etc.

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jef costello
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Jan 30 2006 23:19
Grace wrote:
You can't generalise like that. Seriously. It's not our fault we're not allowed to work, mostly if people had the choice then they would. Besides, the majority of people I've met here have parents who, while they may not have stereotypical 'working class' jobs, are certainly not the owners of capital.

I can and will. Offer me some proof, even govt stats back me up. Even oxford's own stats back me up. I didn't say all students were m/c just that you couldn't defend them as w/c. I can't be arsed to google for stats, if you really think I am wrong then have a go.

edit: I'll agree that oxford students will be the sharper end but there are still a hell of a lot more rich kids up there than w/c.

I am not personally attacking you Grace and I apologise if you feel that I have. I am not saying that there are no w/c people, just that they are a minority, and a small one at that.

One of my best mates went to Oxford. (see, I can't possibly be prejudiced)

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JDMF
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Jan 30 2006 23:25
Jef Costello wrote:
Grace wrote:
You can't generalise like that. Seriously. It's not our fault we're not allowed to work, mostly if people had the choice then they would. Besides, the majority of people I've met here have parents who, while they may not have stereotypical 'working class' jobs, are certainly not the owners of capital.

I can and will. Offer me some proof, even govt stats back me up. Even oxford's own stats back me up. I didn't say all students were m/c just that you couldn't defend them as w/c. I can't be arsed to google for stats, if you really think I am wrong then have a go.

who cares man! They are students FFS, not some organised mobb of the capital grin I couldn't give a flying F what the class background of the students in Oxford is - it is in my experience (from living and working in Oxford for 4 years) very diverse.

I think the point which was raised earlier by some poster about students not being in any position of power to do something about it, so no responsibility should be placed on them.

Same goes for the workers of the uni.

I wonder what would have happened if I was still living in oxford and working at the OUP/Uni and been involved in the union work there. Probably would have been totally denounced by some sectors of the AR folks (read the "friends with white supremacist thread for background info, lol).

Grace
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Jan 30 2006 23:32
Jef Costello wrote:
Grace wrote:
You can't generalise like that. Seriously. It's not our fault we're not allowed to work, mostly if people had the choice then they would. Besides, the majority of people I've met here have parents who, while they may not have stereotypical 'working class' jobs, are certainly not the owners of capital.

I can and will. Offer me some proof, even govt stats back me up. Even oxford's own stats back me up. I didn't say all students were m/c just that you couldn't defend them as w/c. I can't be arsed to google for stats, if you really think I am wrong then have a go.

edit: I'll agree that oxford students will be the sharper end but there are still a hell of a lot more rich kids up there than w/c.

I am not personally attacking you Grace and I apologise if you feel that I have. I am not saying that there are no w/c people, just that they are a minority, and a small one at that.

One of my best mates went to Oxford. (see, I can't possibly be prejudiced)

Ah okay, I misinterpreted somewhat I think. We're a growing minority though; I don't think the balance will ever go the other way purely because of the reputation of the place, but it's getting better from what I can tell.

(My best mate here is a pro-life Tory Catholic. Doesn't stop me being prejudiced tongue )

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jef costello
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Jan 30 2006 23:36
JDMF wrote:
who cares man! They are students FFS, not some organised mobb of the capital grin I couldn't give a flying F what the class background of the students in Oxford is - it is in my experience (from living and working in Oxford for 4 years) very diverse.

I think the point which was raised earlier by some poster about students not being in any position of power to do something about it, so no responsibility should be placed on them.

Same goes for the workers of the uni.

I wonder what would have happened if I was still living in oxford and working at the OUP/Uni and been involved in the union work there. Probably would have been totally denounced by some sectors of the AR folks (read the "friends with white supremacist thread for background info, lol).

Quite right JDMF, I wasn't really defending attacks on students, just got a little carried away.

I feel bad, I read that post where you were denounced, started writing a reply, then stopped because I thought it would be binned because it was such bollocks. Should have shown more solidarity comrade.

Out of interest is there any student movement protesting against animal testing? I don't believe it helps towards the class struggle in itself but I do think anything that makes people question and resist the status quo is valuable.

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jef costello
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Jan 30 2006 23:39
Grace wrote:
(My best mate here is a pro-life Tory Catholic. Doesn't stop me being prejudiced tongue )

Obviously you aen't as right on as me. I saw a black person in the street the other day and didn't swallow my wedding ring.

Grace
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Jan 30 2006 23:43
Jef Costello wrote:
Out of interest is there any student movement protesting against animal testing? I don't believe it helps towards the class struggle in itself but I do think anything that makes people question and resist the status quo is valuable.

Not as far as I'm aware. There's a thing called the 'Oxford Student Activist Network' but their website is pretty much dead and all they seem to do is have film nights occasionally. On the uni forums and stuff a lot of it is pro-lab, and surveys in the student papers have given a result of about 85% of students being for the lab. But then I think any AR activity within the uni itself would be pretty covert since that government thing making unis crack down on 'extremist' groups, and so students who were against it would have to get involved with external stuff.

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jef costello
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Jan 30 2006 23:46
Grace wrote:
Jef Costello wrote:
Out of interest is there any student movement protesting against animal testing? I don't believe it helps towards the class struggle in itself but I do think anything that makes people question and resist the status quo is valuable.

Not as far as I'm aware. There's a thing called the 'Oxford Student Activist Network' but their website is pretty much dead and all they seem to do is have film nights occasionally. On the uni forums and stuff a lot of it is pro-lab, and surveys in the student papers have given a result of about 85% of students being for the lab. But then I think any AR activity within the uni itself would be pretty covert since that government thing making unis crack down on 'extremist' groups, and so students who were against it would have to get involved with external stuff.

Govt. crackdown? I thought that was only against muslims.

My uni is pathetic, there is a defunct (as far as I can tell) MArxist readin group and a Fairtrade society. University is such a fucking disappointment.

Fatty
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Jan 30 2006 23:49

I know of no poltical gatherings at my university whatsoever. I know a few people studying politics though and it's always interesting to chat to them, especially when they're drunk. It ends up in them screaming about extremist right wingers.

Grace
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Jan 30 2006 23:53
Jef Costello wrote:
Grace wrote:
Jef Costello wrote:
Out of interest is there any student movement protesting against animal testing? I don't believe it helps towards the class struggle in itself but I do think anything that makes people question and resist the status quo is valuable.

Not as far as I'm aware. There's a thing called the 'Oxford Student Activist Network' but their website is pretty much dead and all they seem to do is have film nights occasionally. On the uni forums and stuff a lot of it is pro-lab, and surveys in the student papers have given a result of about 85% of students being for the lab. But then I think any AR activity within the uni itself would be pretty covert since that government thing making unis crack down on 'extremist' groups, and so students who were against it would have to get involved with external stuff.

Govt. crackdown? I thought that was only against muslims.

My uni is pathetic, there is a defunct (as far as I can tell) MArxist readin group and a Fairtrade society. University is such a fucking disappointment.

Nah it includes AR groups too I believe. There are a lot of societies here although predictably the Conservative Association is pretty much the most prominent. There's nothing of much interest within the uni really, which is unfortunate.

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jef costello
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Jan 30 2006 23:54
Fatty wrote:
I know of no poltical gatherings at my university whatsoever. I know a few people studying politics though and it's always interesting to chat to them, especially when they're drunk. It ends up in them screaming about extremist right wingers.

What Uni you at?

I reckon I could get some action at the Fairtrade society, having long hair and lefty opinions, if I could choke back the bile long enough.

This generation seems to be remarkably unradical. Wankers.

Fatty
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Jan 30 2006 23:56

I'm at Portsmouth University. I don't know enough about politics to join any political groups. I know next to nothing about politics in all honesty (ask Grace - she knows.)

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Jan 30 2006 23:58

Hi

Quote:
think the point which was raised earlier by some poster about students not being in any position of power to do something about it, so no responsibility should be placed on them.

Presumably this is only true for students. Take capitalism and the working class. Just because it isn’t our fault, doesn’t mean it isn’t our responsibility to put it right.

The notion that animals have rights is incorrect.

Love

LR

Fatty
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Jan 31 2006 00:01
Lazy Riser wrote:
The notion that animals have rights is incorrect.

Not that I don't agree with you but I think you should apply some justification to this statement.

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jef costello
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Jan 31 2006 00:01
Lazy Riser wrote:
Hi
Quote:
think the point which was raised earlier by some poster about students not being in any position of power to do something about it, so no responsibility should be placed on them.

Presumably this is only true for students. Take capitalism and the working class. Just because it isn’t our fault, doesn’t mean it isn’t our responsibility to put it right.

The notion that animals have rights is incorrect.

Love

LR

True, until they accept their responsibilities we can never consider them as comrades. Anyone have any ideas on how to awaken my cat's class consciousness enough to stop her shitting on the kitchen floor?

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Lazy Riser
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Jan 31 2006 00:02

Hi

Fatty wrote:
Lazy Riser wrote:
The notion that animals have rights is incorrect.

Not that I don't agree with you but I think you should apply some justification to this statement.

Do you believe in a God?

Love

LR

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Lazy Riser
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Jan 31 2006 00:02

Hi

Quote:
Anyone have any ideas on how to awaken my cat's class consciousness enough to stop her shitting on the kitchen floor?

Skin her for slippers.

Love

LR

Fatty
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Jan 31 2006 00:03
Lazy Riser wrote:
Hi

Do you believe in a God?

Love

LR

Hi

No.

Love.

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jef costello
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Jan 31 2006 00:04
Lazy Riser wrote:
Hi
Quote:
Anyone have any ideas on how to awaken my cat's class consciousness enough to stop her shitting on the kitchen floor?

Skin her for slippers.

Love

LR

Reactionary. You can't blame her for acting within a role prescribed by capitalism, you can only try to awaken class consciousness.

And no I don't believe in any god, although apparently I have a rather high (and unfounded) opinion of myself.

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Jan 31 2006 00:05

Hi

Quote:
No.

Excellent. My premise is that “rights” don’t exist, consequently animals can’t have them.

Love

LR