Why people knew what they wanted in Syrian Kurdistan but not in other localities of Arab Spring?

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Leo
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Nov 10 2014 22:30

If you actually take the time to read the book you can see that it's not just a single girl either.

I was referring to the link to another book which includes part of the quote, I corrected my post on this thread.

kurekmurek
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Nov 11 2014 07:45

But still why should we believe Curukkaya's book is correct. as far as I see all he provide is this: "there was this girl she was assaulted, I tried to defend her, the organisation attacked me" and nothing beyond this. Nothing can be confirmed. How do we know he tells the truth and does not bend the facts to establish a political base for his upcoming organization? He is a very interested actor in this game, just like Turkish state for example. Should I also believe what Turkish state says also?

This does not make any sense, for example: in the text by Hatice Yasar, she respectfully mentions Sakine Cansız, one of the recently killed kurdish activists. As far as I know she was also a love interest for Mehmet Sener. However the thing is she was a powerful figure in Kurdish movement and she never left PKK. Now after she died every person in opposition to PKK attributes her that she hated PKK, she knew Ocalan was a dictator. OK,, but why she did not say so? Why she continue to act in PKK? How can I believe such non-proven words and memories (which in strict contrast to her involvement in PKK) as truth? For example she reportedly had a problem with PKK after she was released from prison. But why she was not killed? Why she came back to PKK? Why we need to read this event as she knew the reality of PKK and hated it? It just appears to open a door to "Sakine Cansız" to come to their side and form her oppositional national organization with them (she was alive back then). This politics per se. Why you are not disgusted by such politics as much as you do with (old) nationalist centralized politics of PKK? How can you be sure this is not a move to gain political power?

Moreover what we discuss here is historical stuff (most recent event we discuss is in 1993) I do not know about rape but it is obvious that PKK finished other leftist organizations in Kurdistan and not in nice ways. However this should be criticized as history of PKK. What makes you think PKK is still the same organization? What is so totally reactionary about it now? I do not defend their actions but it is true that PKK gained political support through violence, because it was a very concrete (an alive example) hope for Kurdish people that oppressive Turkish state could be defeated by themselves.

Also still the Ocelot's argument stands: Why are we discussing gender and PKK issue on the basis of rape accusations of three men? What is good in such analysis this is obviously an anti-propaganda. I am sorry, I really don't know why you are so deeply emotional about decrying PKK. However it certainly does not help (to make me believe you) defending accusations of rape that is only referenced in two texts (without any concrete proof) and ten weblinks, where these quotes are reproduced again and again, just to discredit all Kurdish women's movement.

Leo
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Nov 11 2014 18:26

Three more sources of Ocalan's rape allegations: Nejdet Buldan's Being a Woman in the PKK, made up entirely of interviews with 10 women, former members of the PKK living in Europe who told the stories of what happened to them. There is another book by another former PKK member, this time actually a woman, mentioned here: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/pkk-and-the-free-female-fighter-rhetori... As far as I know this book was published in the Iraqi Kurdistan. Lastly, the testimony of Semdin Sakik a former PKK leader who was captured after he left the organization by the Turks and became a confessor, in A Tyrant in Imrali, independently verify the other reports mentioned. On the possible objection about the last source, I will simply say that Sakik is no more a confessor than Ocalan himself, who declared his willingness to serve the Turkish state however he can when he was captured.

Although I don't think Kuremkarmerruk would see concrete proof even if Ocalan raped twenty women in front of his eyes.

kurekmurek
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Nov 12 2014 05:22

Yeah definitely qouting state propaganda is just as reliable as seeing stuff. Come on you qoute from Hurriyet news (the motto of this newspaper is Turkey is for Turks, it is literally written down under its name) why do you believe in such state propaganda? How state propaganda to discredit its (ex-)enemy number one can be considered objective. You still just contine to reproduce state propaganda and insult kurdish women here.

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klas batalo
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Nov 12 2014 16:25

some quick resources of interest on rojava

Basically a guide to a lot of the Kurdish groupings
http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/kurds-2135687288

First hand account a whole year before Zaher's article
http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2013/ahmad230113.html

Tag for the Tev Dem on Rojava Report
https://rojavareport.wordpress.com/tag/tev-dem/

The more I read the more I'm skeptical of my optimism in the article I wrote.

baboon
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Jun 1 2015 18:06

The Times reports today that thousands of civilians have fled from their homes as the Kurdish forces of the Kurdish People's Protection Units - the YPG, the USA's closest ally in the war against Isis - has been carrying out a campaign of the ethnic cleansing of Sunni Arabs whose villages it has been burning, looting and destroying for weeks now. These include the settlements around Kobani. Social media shows pictures of the latest attacks in Hasakah province where hundreds of civilians have fled with few possessions. The YPG commander in Ras al-Ayn, Hussein Kocher, said last month that all the young (Sunni) men are wanted by the YPG for "political reasons". The estimates that the paper gives is that ten thousand Arabs have been driven out by the ethnic cleansing of the Kurdish regime.

kurekmurek
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Jun 1 2015 22:54

So you are sure they did that. Well this is pretty extraordinary in my opinion for a group to make ethnic cleansing whose members include Arabs. Anyway thank you for making me aware of this. I shared this under Rojava news let's see what will this means.

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Devrim
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Jun 2 2015 07:52

I badly think this is a surprise. Salish Muslim promised us ethnic cleansing and now, if this article is true, it seems we are getting it.

Devrim

kurekmurek
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Jun 2 2015 08:27

Well it surprised me actually given that he apologized and said he is misunderstood. I just do not get the motivation why Kurds would do so, given that they have Arabs as ministers and authority positions in their self-government.

Quote:
“Each canton has its own government with its own president, two vice-presidents and several ministries: Economy, Women, Trade, Human Rights … up to a total of 22,” explains Gawrie. Among the ministers in Jazeera, she adds, there are four Arabs, three Christians and a Chechen; Syria has hosted a significant Caucasian community since the late 19th century.

http://www.ipsnews.net/2014/10/democracy-is-radical-in-northern-syria/

Well I just hope that you are wrong. I hope soon we learn the truth.

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Devrim
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Jun 2 2015 09:53
kurremkarmerruk wrote:
Well I just hope that you are wrong. I hope soon we learn the truth.

It's not me saying that this has happened. It's news reports. They may well be the truth. They could also be lies. Neither would surprise me.

kurremkarmerruk wrote:
Well it surprised me actually given that he apologized and said he is misunderstood.

I don't think that 'apologising' is really the point.

kurremkarmerruk wrote:
I just do not get the motivation why Kurds would do so, given that they have Arabs as ministers and authority positions in their self-government.

I don't think that it has to have come from the top. In nationalist conflicts, very often these sort of actions do not come from orders from the top, but come from people involved in fighting on the ground. Troops who have lost their friends and comrades in fighting turn around and take reprisals. It's how these things tend to develop. We talked about the way this process works in a piece last year:

Quote:
In the midst of a civil war between a Kurdish militia, and what is essentially a Sunni Arab militia, these events will happen. It matters not how progressive the PKK portrays itself. The logic of the situation dictates what will happen. A good example would be the Kingsmill massacre in County Armagh, Northern Ireland in 1976. The IRA, like the PKK, was viewed as a 'progressive, socialist' organisation, but the day after Protestant paramilitaries shot dead five Catholic civilians, Irish Republicans went out and stopped a bus of building workers, and took off the eleven protestants on it, and shot them, killing ten of them. The IRA denied involvement in the attack. However, that didn't stop the Protestant paramilitaries from enacting their revenge, and the tit for tat killings continued.

https://libcom.org/blog/bloodbath-syria-class-war-or-ethnic-war-03112014

To a certain extent if it is believed by people on the ground to have happened this way it doesn't matter if it is true or not. Even if it is all lies if people believe it, it will still act as fuel to the nationalist fire. Sunni Arabs will hit back at Kurds in revenge, and Kurds will hit back at Sunni Arabs. Thus the spiral deepens.

Devrim

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Entdinglichung
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Jun 2 2015 10:01

http://www.syriahr.com/en/2015/06/ypg-denies-the-accusations-of-killing-...

kurekmurek
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Jun 2 2015 11:26

Devrim

I meant I hope people are not killed becuse of their ethnicity bu YPG.

Yeah your point about ethic conflict is true. But it is true regardless of what kurds do. You are from Turkey you know maras massacre incident. Leftists were organised among alevis (a heterodoks sect of islam) However majority of the maras (sunnis) is manipulated that the alevis will attack the mosque after the friday prayer. Sunnis attacked alevis killing hundereds of people. And nobdy get punished for this event is was sure caused by state. I am afraid that this might be another such manipulation to make arabs attack kurds. And this claim of ethnic cleansing might be a pure fictive justification.

Also ethnic cleansing is necer a light claim it is always a state action. Think about Armenian genocide. It was made by central goverment with an informal order. There are a lot of indirect official documemts that prove that central government knew it and wished to get its share from the goods taken. I can think that there might be some ethnic tensions in war. But if it is an ethnic cleansing than something is seriously wrong.

I am keeping a close eye on this

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Devrim
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Jun 2 2015 11:46

I hope people aren't killed because of their ethnicity by anyone. It happens though. Which faction is doing it is really unimportant. The impression I get is that you either don't believe, or don't want to believe that this is true, the reason being that you saw something progressive in what was happening in Rojova. If it is true though it's obvious that something is seriously wrong there.

I don't know whether it's true. There are people who have interests in fabricating a story like this. Nevertheless, I can see reasons why it would be true. Th PYD is trying to consolidate its position and would like to link the cantons physically. In order to do this actions like this are probably necccesary. Of course if you see them as embodying something progressive in the region this would be deeply surprising. If you see them as just another ethnic militia as I do, it is hardly surprising. As for people who would invent this story, Sunni Arab militias has an obvious interest in that, and I wouldn't even put it past Tayyip in order to discredit the HDP before the election though it seems a bit late in the day for that.

The idea that ethnic cleansing is always carried out by states is, I think wrong. While the Ottoman state was clearly guilty of massacres and ethnic cleansing during the Armenian genocide, history shows us that non state actors can be just as guilty of genocide.

Devrim

Flint
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Jun 2 2015 12:57

Video of Arab residents refuting rumors about displacement (PYD source)

There seems to be a lot of folks who think The Times article is bad journalism: an unnamed "Syrian humanitarian organization", article written by a journalist who isn't in Syria, no effort to contact YPG for a quote, single witness, no pictures, etc...as propaganda, this author failed by going with to large a number--10,000. If it was so high, there would be more evidence, more reporting and groups willing to be named reporting.

Human Rights Watch hasn't reported anything like it and they are in Rojava. They don't hesitate to criticize PYD. They also have been criticizing KRG for failing to allow Arab families to return home while letting Kurdish families pass. HRW

And it goes contrary to PYD's ideology, to Tev-Dem's multi-ethnic composition, the integrated Arab and Syriac forces in the YPG/YPJ, the alliance with Arab, Turkmen groups in Burkan al-Furat, and what we know of the treatment of Arab refugees in Cizire canton and Sheikh Masqood.

The Times article is weird in other ways. YPG took over Abdulaziz ten days ago with the assistance of Al-Sanadid.

kurekmurek
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Jun 2 2015 12:59

@Devrim

OK, I agree. Yeah I do not believe this. But I am waiting for more concrete reports to come. It is right PYD wishes to connect the cantons however I am doubtful if it wants to do it by force and coercion directed against civilians.

I did not exclude the possibility that Kurdish self-government is somewhat a state and so could make an ethnic cleansing though. However the concept of ethnic cleansing carries a baggage with it. I think it is currently not justified to use it. The news reports mention death of 20 people. The number 10.000 is very dubious whether it is an estimation or a prediction. It is also unknown why this many people left, why they were afraid of YPG. I am sure there are rumors about them among Arab population but I am not sure if these are realities or ethnic biases. I still find it unrealistic and unmotivated that an organisation that consists of multi-ethnicities uses such violence against Arabs (and let alone on the basis that they are just from another Islamic sect) risking alienating both the Arabs inside them and the Arabs (FSA) they wish to form an alliance to fight against IS (as you emphasized a lot in our previous discussions).

EDIT: while I was writing Flint uploaded some more info. As a general and last comment/idea about it: Well let's be cautious and do not become puppets of manipulation from anyone shall we and keep an open eye on this issue and try to find whether this is true or not.

EDIT 2 : I am just excluding all the ideological issues above, i.e I think that "this is completely contrary to current ideology of PYD or YPG and the socialist groups with them" here, for sake of realist and basic argumentation to establish a communication.

kurekmurek
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Jun 2 2015 13:08

Flint I will re-post your above comment to Rojava news thread. It is good to keep things organised. And please continue to inform us. As even the possibility of such an "Ethnic cleansing waged by YPG" is a serious issue and if proven, it requires a reconsideration of many issues related to the potentials of Kurdish movement by any communist/anarchist for sure.

Flint
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Jun 2 2015 13:57
kurremkarmerruk wrote:
I am just excluding all the ideological issues above, i.e I think that "this is completely contrary to current ideology of PYD or YPG and the socialist groups with them" here, for sake of realist and basic argumentation to establish a communication.

Realpolitik only? O.K. The PYD/YPG pretty much has to be inclusive of Arabs in terms of Tev-Dem. Why? The geographically largest, with the most resources, with the most population canton is Cizire canton. That's also the canton with a border with Iraq (and Iraq's Kurdistan Regional Government). Its 45% Kurdish, 45% Arab, and the rest being Syriacs, Armenian, Turkmen, etc... its also majority Sunni, 24% Christian and probably much of the PYD isn't very religious. The two largest cities of Al-Qamishli and Al-Hasakah are multi-ethnic and have large Arab and Kurdish neighborhoods. Given those kinds of numbers, its practical to engage in multi-ethnic power sharing. The YPG wouldn't have the capacity to displace the Arab population of Al-Hasakah governorate in such a short time without using very violent, obvious actions--and then it would have to deal with an Arab insurgency.

It also needs Arab support to secure the Arab towns and villages that the YPG liberates from Daesh--which is exactly the methodology that the YPG is using. This is all very deliberate and documented by third parties.

In Kobane canton, the Euphrates Volcano is basically YPG + Arab and Turkemen allies. Some of those allies weren't always allies (like the group from Raqqa, that joined Nursa out of duress, got kicked out of Nursa for not being religious enough and then driven into Kobane by Daesh during the siege). But the strategy is generally, YPG/YPJ as mechanized infantry attacks and removes Daesh, with Arab FSA groups holding the Arab villages afterwards.

Democratic Confederalism is a good fit for the kind of multi-ethnic region that Al-Hasakah is. The trouble here politically is to what extent different local villages are in support of the PYD's other progressive goals whether that's gender equality or communal economics. The Syriac Military Council (Mawtbo Fulhoyo Suryoyo or MFS)/Syriac Union Party is probably in agreement with that part of the program--and they've been called the "Assyrian PKK" before. But how much are the Al Sanadid (Shammar Arab tribal milita) down with the whole program? They might be because they've been working with the YPG precursors for a while... but some of those Euphrates Volcano(FSA) groups didn't have that sort of ideology before find themselves forced into Kobane and they are also now cut off from their home communities of Raqqa and Jarabulus. Also, the YPG in Maqsood keeps reaching out to the Arab community in Aleppo, but much of the FSA there is dominated by Islamist groups that want to impose Sharia. So, long term it will remain to be seen how much PYD can spread democratic confederalism and what conflicts occur between community autonomy and the other progressive aspects of the PYD program.

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Serge Forward
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Jun 2 2015 14:19

That film's a bit weird. Why do we see the subtitles but not hear the voices of the Arab residents being interviewed?

kurekmurek
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Jun 2 2015 14:25

I heard their voices. Are your volume off or you mean sth else. What I find interesting was that not only the villagers speak in arabic, also the narrator was speaking in arabic. ( I think) nothing was in kurdish interestingly

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Jun 2 2015 14:54

You are quite right, kurremkarmerruk. I was listening to it on earphones at work and one of the earphones has a dodgy speaker. The voices are there.