Why people knew what they wanted in Syrian Kurdistan but not in other localities of Arab Spring?

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kurekmurek
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Nov 5 2014 11:24
Why people knew what they wanted in Syrian Kurdistan but not in other localities of Arab Spring?

In his report Zaher Baher argues that there is a fundamental difference between what Arab Spring culminated into and What Rojava resulted in. (Link: https://libcom.org/news/experiment-west-kurdistan-syrian-kurdistan-has-p... I recommend everyone to read it.)
See this part especially:

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From what I have seen, Syrian Kurdistan has taken a different route (and, in my opinion, the right one) from the “Arab Spring” and the two cannot be compared. There are a couple of major differences between them.

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2. In Syrian Kurdistan the people were prepared and knew what they wanted. They believed that the revolution must start from the bottom of society and not from the top. It must be a social, cultural and educational as well as political revolution. It must be against the state, power and authority. It must be people in the communities who have the final decision-making responsibilities. These are the four principles of the Movement of the Democracy Society (Tev-Dam).

My wish here is to futher inquire about Zaher's claim, in other words: Why people knew what they wanted in Syrian Kurdistan but nowhere else? I think this issue should addressed. Why it differed so much from Egypt for example? Zaher gives credit to two groups of people one being "Abdullah Ocallan and his comrades". (I guess he means PYD here). The other being "people in Syrian Kurdistan".
On other occasions in Arab Spring (and also in other parts of Syria):

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people were not prepared and knew only that they wanted to get rid of the current government but not the system. Also, the vast majority of the people thought that the only revolution is the revolution from the top. Setting up local groups was not undertaken except by a tiny minority of anarchists and libertarians.

I think this is a real issue. Revolutionaries should better know when and how a society (or a class) will organize itself as a self-ruler (and not a reformist force that just wishes to wipe out the "dirty" authorities) I think finding this out can not be accomplished by purely theoretical and/or historical accounts. It must relate to concrete reality we live in. I think it is obvious that this requires a mass organization and also a history of political organizing, but what more contributes to emergence of this "knowledge" in the minds of the masses? What factors are important? Industrial relations? Agricultural relations? Cities? Villages? Ethnic oppression? State enforced capitalism? A sort of nomadic root? economic well being? Economic deprivation? a culture of solidarity? a culture of individuality? What is its relation to religion?

bastarx
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Nov 6 2014 01:04
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What factors are important?

In this case it seems like the important factors are a well established Stalinist national liberation gang and a bunch of idiot anarchists to fight their cyber war for them.

jojo
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Nov 6 2014 06:04

I can't understand why kurremkarmerruk can't understand that what's going on in Syrian Kurdistan is an historically late kind of national liberation movement by the Kurdish bourgeoisie to establish an ethnically Kurdish "country" that initially won't actually have a traditional nation up and running on the ground.

It reminds me of the activities of the IRA to make Ulster theirs, and the struggles of the PLO to establish a homeland for the Palestinians. There's nothing revolutionary about any of this. It's all bourgeois crap and very dangerous.

When the real working class revolution finally arrives - and the working class is the only class left in society capable of making a revolution, the outcome of which will be communism not the belated recognition of some newfangled ethnic group - the quaint idea of nationhood will be finally laid to rest, and the somewhat racist emphasis on ethnicity subsumed into working class solidarity.

kurekmurek
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Nov 6 2014 07:43

bastarx

So in this case then I suggest you go organize your own Stalinist party to make a federalist non state Bookchinian direct democracy alternative real. That is easier said than done! However I was wanting to discuss things in more abstract level (in light of empirical issues)

jojo

Thank you jojo. You are definitely half right on my opinion. however could you just read the article I linked in the above from Zaher. I was not speaking my views (at least only). I was trying to discuss why Zaher thought so after his comparison of results of Arab spring that the developments in Syrian Kurdistan were so different than other localities of Arab Spring? I think this is a valuable question to answer for any revolutionary who wants to understand the political realities of his/her time.

I mind you again: if you did not know: Zaher is an self-claimed anarchist (pacifist). His organization originally had very negative views concerning Kurdish movement. (You can find them on libcom). however the thing is after his visit to Rojava he seems to be very impressed of the direct democracy and in general social control over much of the life there (from gernder issues to politics, to militias, to economy etc...) So I think we should try to understand critically what factors lead to such interesting results?

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klas batalo
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Nov 6 2014 18:24

he thinks they were prepared because they were...they had a program...when the power vacuum happened or when the syrian state left rojava to the PYD the PYD decided to implement their hegemony...it is debatable other than maybe the organic reaction of the tev dem that there was any actual class movement with a program. but in other areas there were not organized political groups with a program. in syria there was that anarchist who was for establishing committees but there was no anarchist political group or union movement...the trotskyists also didn't seem to step in with anything. i think this is what zaher means.

kurekmurek
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Nov 6 2014 18:36

klas batalo

Ok, interesting. By the way I did not get the last part of your comment. Do you speak about a specific anarchist or trotskyists? I do not know anything about such groups, where can I learn about them? If there were what are they doing now? Or do you speak hypothetical?

Spikymike
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Nov 6 2014 18:40

OK pehaps this limited analysis from someone obviously supportive of the Kobane resistance and recognising the claimed progressive elements of Rojava 'civil society', but otherwise comming to some of the same conclusions as other crtics on this site regarding the real nature of the so-called 'democratic confederalist' turn of the PKK and it's practice in Rojava (if not on other matters) might be easier for some of the anarchist promoters of ''the Rojava revolution' to take on board:
http://www.servetdusmani.org/rojava-fantasies-and-realities/

kurekmurek
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Nov 6 2014 18:47

I did not know they translated it. Thanks Spikymike. You know mikail writes on this site in Turkish also? (I found this site and this text in Turkish on his libcom page, so I think it is no secret.)

kurekmurek
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Nov 6 2014 19:03

I nearly totally agree with this by the way. I am probably much more supportive of Rojava Autonomy experiment than the writer I guess (mainly due to its social significance (for oppressed Kurdish nation) and I am more OK with experimental methods (Like trying Bookchin) and also I am hopeful about possible affects over Turkish politics). Before passing on I want to emphasize 2 things from the text:

1)I also think it won't (possibly) change or even challenge global capitalism. (ı wrote at least two times in libcom forums.If such a thing happens I would be most surprised. I totally agree with this sentence also:

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In that sense, it is equally problematic to attribute a mission to Rojava that is beyond what it is or what it can be or to blame those people engaged in a life and death struggle for expecting support from Coalition forces or not carrying out “a revolution to our liking”.

2)This is also a good summary of what I see as important in Rojava:

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First of all we must identify that the Rojava process has progressive features such as an important leap in the direction of women’s liberation, that a secular, pro-social justice, pluralist democratic structure is attempted to be constructed and that other ethnic and religious groups are given a part in the administration

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mikail firtinaci
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Nov 7 2014 02:55
Quote:
I did not know they translated it. Thanks Spikymike. You know mikail writes on this site in Turkish also? (I found this site and this text in Turkish on his libcom page, so I think it is no secret.)

I wrote on that site (servet dusmani), but the site itself does not represent an organization, hence the ideas presented in the articles are not necessarily representative of any collective position. As it says in the introduction, the goal of the site is to generate a systematic discussion.

I wrote a Turkish article published on that site which is indirectly related to the question. In that article I tried to explain how class society infects proletarians and motivates them to support for Kobane (counter)revolution and nationalist wars even though that is completely against proletarian class interests and even though that support undermines the materialization of working class collective spirit and consciousness. Here is the article:

http://www.servetdusmani.org/kapitalist-duygu-uretimi-biciminin-son-asam...

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mikail firtinaci
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Nov 7 2014 03:24

unnecessary rambling deleted

kurekmurek
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Nov 7 2014 08:01

Ok. I will have a look.

EDIT: I looked it. It is very indirectly related to Kobane. Kobane actually occurs in it once and it is on the level of discourse. I think in the text you totalize stuff hastily under categories of your analysis without feeling the need to provide any substantial evidence except "the internal coherence of your theory" and "very general discursive associations" (in my words) And this way you can equalize a call of a Turkish nationalist to defend the nation-state and its founder against its imaginary enemies with a very real process of fall or existence of Kobane (and its Kurdish population). I think they look only formally the same and not in the actual political situation (from the perspective of oppressed). And you from here directly jump to salvation of all humanity and condemnation of everything that does not help it in the way you understand it. Anyway I guess we have discussed this stuff already enough I won't repeat myself on it in the future. I must note that your analysis shows how dedicated you are, which is good -but not enough at least for me to be persuaded- . By the way I am also very happy with such "internationalist" discussions and I do not criticize them as I do some other texts, which have factual errors and misrepresentations. Because I am totally OK with internationalists presenting their ideology (Of course I still find such ideologies as insufficiently political [in the sense that they reduce politics to ideology]). I am not OK with internationalist texts who try to obscure facts (especially to an audience who does not know Turkish or Kurdish and so who can not check the facts themselves.

EDIT 2: Also I just realized the text titled: "Internationalism is the only response to the Kurdish issue" is not available in Turkish (or Kurdish I suppose) which is sick! This is so very wrong to me. This further breaks any communication between people who does not know Turkish or Kurdish with Kurds who does not know who International communist current is. This is not an healthy way for political discussion at all.

jojo
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Nov 7 2014 09:26

As I understand it "Internationalsts" are usually communist and so don't have an ideology, but a class analysis of capitalism. Ideology, as used by Marx in "The German Ideology" refers to the phony pack of lies the bourgeoisie comes out with to justify whatever underhanded trick they are currently trying to pull off, and to disguise their own exploitative nature. So the PKK stinks of ideology because it is a bourgeois set-up masquerading as "revolutionary" or even working class.

kurekmurek
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Nov 7 2014 10:47

I guess we would better not discuss this issue here at length (as it would be pointless) Although I am aware of German Ideology, I do not buy the argument that communists have no ideology.

Maybe I could explain myself better if I used the word theoretical instead of ideological. I have no opposition that people develop their Marxisms (just like Internationalists did) the problem I have is that political questions can not be solved by theoretical argumentation alone. So for example you can not decide what communist should or should not do from an abstract view of theory. Calling for always and every time for total liberation of all humanity can lead you to be politically ineffective to realize that very goal (even it can make you an enemy of it). Because politics happen in concrete reality that has historical complexities and also it requires solutions to practical questions (of life and death) only applicable to contexts that produce them (this is why they are practical and temporary).

And if the issue is Rojava for example calling for purely working class action is just pure theory devoid of any historical, social, political or economic content. It is just application of categories of analysis that is abstracted from a different time period and a different social conditions to a another time and place disregarding context of its application. I think we should be much more nuanced and informed of the current state of affairs in the ground level, this might lead us to a political positioning that can have progressive effects (And doing so does not mean that we need to abandon whatever theory/ideology/political-identity we have.)

Anyway maybe this issue could be better discussed in another forum thread related to the issue that "why Marx himself supported the Paris commune". As far as I understand it, it was at least partially related to its possible political effects.

Leo
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Nov 9 2014 21:50
Quote:
Also I just realized the text titled: "Internationalism is the only response to the Kurdish issue" is not available in Turkish (or Kurdish I suppose) which is sick! This is so very wrong to me. This further breaks any communication between people who does not know Turkish or Kurdish with Kurds who does not know who International communist current is. This is not an healthy way for political discussion at all.

The reason this particular text hasn't been translated into Turkish is because, while it was written in close collaboration with the members of the ICC in Turkey, it was actually written by one of the European sections of the organization in response to an anarchist conference in Switzerland.

There are plenty of articles on the Turkish website of the ICC which do put forward its positions about the PKK very clearly. Even before the first left communist group in Turkey, the EKS joined the ICC, the positions of both this group and the ICC were the same on the Kurdish question.

In any case, you should let the ICC worry about communication with Kurds who don't know who the ICC is. I will suffice to say that the ICC does have Kurdish members and sympathizers, and even had, from time to time, a very modest distribution of its press in Kurdistan.

If by Kurds you mean the leaders of the organized Kurdish nationalist movement however, to them the attitude of internationalist revolutionaries will not be any different and with no less caution than it is towards the Turkish state.

kurekmurek
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Nov 10 2014 07:31

No none of the stuff in Turkish is as dismissive and full of lies as this one. Most of them in Turkish are actually not that bad. They make political commentaries of state repression and hunger strikes etc. (I do not criticize any of them btw) Yeah they mostly end with calls to abstract working class but that is very OK for me. Only this one 1) tries to argue Ocalan is a rapist 2)pkk and state is all the same 3)ideologically everything related to pkk is downright reactionary. (Anti-democratic, non-gender equal, nation state) none of the texts in Turkish aim to ideologically dismiss kurdish movement (and do so on the basis either lies or discussion of old positions of PKK). As it appears ICC might be supportive of the anti-propaganda text (as in discussions here) however it is obvious it does not try to make its position known to Turkish or Kurdish public, but only to western crowd. This is not a good way of doing politics.

bootsy
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Nov 10 2014 06:32

kurremkarmerruk don't you think it is a bit ironic that in all of the threads regarding Rojava you have accused your opponents of being arrogant and dismissive toward the Kurdish revolutionary movement, and yet in this thread you are dismissing a movement many times larger than the one in Kurdistan!

I don't think people in Rojava had any more or less of any idea about what they wanted than other Arab proletarians did when they began revolting. In the Arab countries a series of popular insurrections which included riots, strikes, occupations and armed rebellions eventually lost steam and became dominated by political groups with access to funds and weapons and popular bases in some working class areas. They were also crushed by outright state repression.

People in Rojava probably want what most of us want; access to the basic necessities of life, a sense of security, rich and fulfilling relationships, love, sexual satisfaction, creative endeavours to participate in and so on... In Rojava we are supposed to believe that an armed nationalist group is leading them there.

Anyway kurremkarmerruk I think its you who should assess whether or not you're being dismissive and arrogant towards a popular movement. The Arab Spring, for all its faults, was a spontaneous mass uprising which opened up a space for proletarians to creatively develop communities of struggle. The Rojava revolution didn't even begin until Syrian forces withdrew from the area causing the military alliance between the PKK and the Syrian state to collapse. It has been controlled by an armed, centralized group from the get go.

Don't you find it scandalous that the PKK had an alliance with Assad while he was brutally crushing a spontaneous insurrection??!

kurekmurek
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Nov 10 2014 07:12

bootsy

I do not get it? Why you wrote such a comment.

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kurremkarmerruk don't you think it is a bit ironic that in all of the threads regarding Rojava you have accused your opponents of being arrogant and dismissive toward the Kurdish revolutionary movement, and yet in this thread you are dismissing a movement many times larger than the one in Kurdistan!

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Anyway kurremkarmerruk I think its you who should assess whether or not you're being dismissive and arrogant towards a popular movement.

It is not my idea I just wanted to discuss an issue that was raised up by Zaher in his article. I find it politically and theoretically interesting to discuss. I had zero intentions to question the legitimate wishes and aspirations of people who participated in Arab spring uprisings (I am sure Zaher also never wrote that part to do such a stupid thing). The point was to find where such difference resulted from. I am respectful of Arab Spring. I really do not get it why you even wrote that?

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I don't think people in Rojava had any more or less of any idea about what they wanted than other Arab proletarians did when they began revolting.

It is still not my idea but Zaher's they did. And this is I guess mostly to the Kurdish parties that were organizing under very harsh conditions.

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... became dominated by political groups with access to funds and weapons and popular bases in some working class areas. They were also crushed by outright state repression.

I also think so. But PYD for example is not characteristic to Arab Springs in that sense or TEV-DEM and direct democracy and federal organization of self-rule etc. all these are different stuff compared to rest of Arab Spring. They deserve evaluation, don't you think?

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People in Rojava probably want what most of us want; access to the basic necessities of life, a sense of security, rich and fulfilling relationships, love, sexual satisfaction, creative endeavours to participate in and so on... In Rojava we are supposed to believe that an armed nationalist group is leading them there.

Again I am just speaking about this according to Zaher's report here. If you look at it you will see PYD currently has not plans to establish a nation-state, has no plans to fight outside kurdistan, politically support federation and democratic self-government, it is very gender equal, it is secular, it is multicultural, it favors communalistic organization of everyday life. Don't you think any of these require discussion? I mean if they change their policies regarding any of these let's criticize of course but are not they very interesting especially to see in middle east geography? (also PYD might be dominant in Rojava however let's be not simplistic. Rojava is a society that is beyond bounds of PYD)

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Don't you find it scandalous that the PKK had an alliance with Assad while he was brutally crushing a spontaneous insurrection??!

Yeah I guess I do however I also know they were repressed very harshly by Assad regime after 2000's. For example Salih Muslim (co-leader of PYD) was personally tortured by Assad Regime. Therefore even if they do not currently attack to Assad's forces I do not think they will cooperate with Assad in a full sense. Assad actually destroyed the basis for such full cooperation by his own dictatorship. I think Kurds used the political crisis very intelligently. (They also fiought on occasion against Assad's forces) and as it is rightly argued by internationalists against me: Kurds are much more in cooperation with Free Syrian Army now (as the thread of IS is increasing). So I see no reason to be worried: As long as Assad will continue to continue its authoritarian rule (in any new way) I guess the Kurds will be on the front lines to rebel against.

Leo
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Nov 10 2014 09:36
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No none of the stuff in Turkish is as dismissive and full of lies as this one.

None of the stuff in Turkish is full of lies and neither is this article. Every claim made here has been backed with direct quotes and sources. I remember you ending up apologizing for Ocalan's quotes admitting his rape so you will understand when I don't take you screaming about lies very seriously.

In any case, while your claim to have gone through eight years of political work and read every single article written by the ICC in Turkish is impressive, it is obviously false.

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Yeah they mostly end with calls to abstract working class but that is very OK for me. Only this one 1) tries to argue Ocalan is a rapist 2)pkk and state is all the same 3)ideologically everything related to pkk is downright reactionary. (Anti-democratic, non-gender equal, nation state) none of the texts in Turkish aim to ideologically dismiss kurdish movement (and do so on the basis either lies or discussion of old positions of PKK).

The only point you're correct here is that none of the articles in Turkish has demonstrated that Ocalan is a rapist. This is because 1) The articles so far were about the PKK's actions in the contemporary political scene, not its history and 2) None of this is real news in Turkey. The ignorance of the anarcho-PKK trolls aside, the Kurdish dissidents of the PKK have been public about their testinomines and critiques at least since the early 1990ies. The English language article on this question consists, for the most part, of a translation and a summary of what numerous other sources already said on the issue, including Ocalan himself. This being said you shouldn't be worried. Eventually a more indepth study on the Kurdish question will eventually be conducted, including the history and evolution of the PKK and also the facts about Ocalan's disgusting conduct as well as the rest of the disturbing practices in the PKK.

Other than that, all the texts in Turkish, like the one in English see the PKK and everything related to it as downright reactionary , all the texts condemn both Turkish and Kurdish nationalism and all the texts aim to politically expose the bourgeois and anti-working class aims and conduct of the PKK.

In any case, I've written both posts to inform others who might be reading this thread. Seeing you as a rape apologist troll I have no intention of conducting any debate or even having a conversation with you.

kurekmurek
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Nov 10 2014 12:08

Not this again

Everyone can read the text and my criticisms here: https://libcom.org/library/internationalism-only-response-kurdish-issue-...

We should not really discuss rape issue again. As there is not even one woman who says she is raped by Ocalan. It is a debate between men to discredit each other politically (including ICC) Also here is not the place to discuss it, do it somewhere else.

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Eventually a more indepth study on the Kurdish question will eventually be conducted, including the history and evolution of the PKK and also the facts about Ocalan's disgusting conduct as well as the rest of the disturbing practices in the PKK.

Yeah hopefully it will be done so, let's discuss it then because the article in discussion is not that.

Of course I did not read everything written ICC. I just tried to communicate my impression. As you urged me now I checked them more. First of all I noticed there is significantly less amount of texts produced by ICC about PKK in their website in Turkish (about 20) compared to ones in English (about 50). Although you did not understand it but I already said I do not agree with ICC. So of course I disagree ideologically with many of the texts however it is interesting that there are also a lot of texts I agree with politically.

For example (About hunger strikes of Kurdish activists for right to defend oneself in his/her mother language in Turkish courts):
http://tr.internationalism.org/duenyadevrimi/201211/421/aclik-grevleri-v...
"Tutsakların açlık grevleri, siyasi arkaplanları bir yana, insani bir sorunsaldır. Açlık grevlerini yapanlar da, savundukları siyaset burjuva milliyetçisi bir siyaset olsa da, Kürt işçi sınıfının, dolayısıyla dünya işçi sınıfının devletin zindanlarında tutsak ettiği evlatlarıdır."
"The hunger strikes of the prisoners, beyond their political backgrounds, are a humanitarian issue. Those hunger strikers, although they support a bourgeoisie national political line, are brothers/sisters of Kurdish working class and also of the global working class, who are imprisoned by the state in its dungeons."

Unfortunately the same emphatic treatment is not given to Kurdish fighters who are also showing the same resistance for their own homes, lives and cultures...

Leo
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Nov 10 2014 13:15

I am not going to respond to the rape apologia of this troll who reduces the issue on which there is plenty of evidence including the admission of the accused into reducing it to "a debate between men to discredit each other politically".

Both Selim Curukkaya and Hatice Yasar (a woman, by the way) goes into a lot of details about how these things went and the reaction of the victims. It was very difficult for women who were raped by Ocalan to come out and say it: it is very difficult for rape-victims to come out and expose what was done to them anyway, and it was even more difficult in the PKK since a member of the PKK saying she was rapen by Ocalan would be accused of being a spy and murdered.

Indeed, there may not be a single woman who says she was raped by Ocalan... left alive, that is.

Anyone interested in my refutation of every apologetic denial by this PKK troll can look at these links: http://libcom.org/news/anarchists-join-fight-against-isis-defend-kurdish... and http://libcom.org/news/anarchists-join-fight-against-isis-defend-kurdish...

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Unfortunately the same emphatic treatment is not given to Kurdish fighters who are also showing the same resistance for their own homes, lives and cultures...

There are several points here which I will address again for the possible readers of this thread. First is the fact that there is an obvious difference between military volunteers and political prisoners. In fact the YPG fighters in Kobane, while some may well be recruited from the city, are in any case not defending their homes, lives or cultures. They are rather defending PYD territory with their lives. The majority of the population in the city has already ran away. Who deserves the same emphatic treatment if not even more solidarity are the working people who've already lost their homes and lives.

The fighters too, of course, deserve emphaty, but not just the Kurdish ones but also the Sunni Arabs. The Sunni Arabs in the Daesh have been drawn to this organization because they're being oppressed in Iraq and in Syria. As communists, we condemn not only the oppressors of the Sunni masses in Iraq and Syria but also Daesh who exploits this situation and ideologically manipulates the Sunni masses into fighting, killing and dying for its interests.

The young Kurds who've volunteered to fight in Kobane are also there for very understandable reasons. Not only have the Kurds been the target of brutal oppression for decades in the Middle East but the Daesh is an extremely monsturous and destructive organization and its conduct causes a very understandable indignation. Nevertheless, these young Kurdish volunteers are dying for the defense of PKK territory, for the nation. Dying is never in the interests of those who die. We will condemn the PKK who is sending these young volunteers to die as well as Daesh who kills them. We can not applaud the self-sacrifice of proletarians for the sake of the nation, we can not sing songs of bravery and heroism at young soldiers blowing themselves up while the leaders of this nationalist army are calmy debating policy with the Turkish state like Ocalan, safely touring Europe and Turkey like Salih Muslim or comfortably making statements from the mountains of Iraqi Kurdistan or from the Turkish national parliament like the leaders of the PKK guerillas or their legal wing in Turkish politics. Being against the national war, the condemnation of both sides is the only policy which is in the interests of the soldiers who do the dying for the interests of their bosses.

I'll say that every internationalist who's argued for this position here is far more emphatic towards the fighters who actually fight and die than all the PKK troll I've seen on this website put together.

kurekmurek
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Nov 10 2014 14:01

Leo

Just like the article you try to defend you are not giving any references so I can check. Selim Curukkaya as I have already written DOES NOT say he saw a rape. He criticizes ban on romantic relations in PKK. He also accuse Ocalan as having relations with PKK members, which is a violation of the rule. Even if we agree that he is right, this is not rape at all.

You just came up with Hatice Yasar, who is she? Why she is not mentioned in internationalist article in question, if she was so reliable? What she says?

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Indeed, there may not be a single woman who says she was raped by Ocalan... left alive, that is.

I think you are probably right if anyone would say she was raped by Ocalan, she might be killed. However This DOES NOT make Ocalan an automatic rapist. You need to come with some sort of proof. Not just repeat anti-PKK propaganda of the state and its political rivals.

If anyone wants to see me in rage to answer empty accusations. You are my guest to read them.

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. In fact the YPG fighters in Kobane, while some may well be recruited from the city, are in any case not defending their homes, lives or cultures. They are rather defending PYD territory with their lives..

What you say is meaningless here. If you speak with some of the refugees who escaped with their children from the war and has relatives in fight it becomes very obvious that how reductionist is this.

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The majority of the population in the city has already ran away.

And I guess you want at least one million people to go away also who live in other two Cantons as well , lost everything and become refugees? (IS does not just want Kobane, It wants everywhere. It also attacked one of the other Cantons recently)

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The fighters too, of course, deserve emphaty, but not just the Kurdish ones but also the Sunni Arabs. The Sunni Arabs in the Daesh have been drawn to this organization because they're being oppressed in Iraq and in Syria.

Again you are mistaking IS with PYD with no real reason except you categorically assume they both are the same. In less abstract level they are not. Political differences between these two is huge (also it is just wrong that YPG fighters only consist of Kurds.) Moreover It is IS that tries to take control of Syria (and beyond) YPG has no intention to fight outside its borders (which they call western Kurdistan). They also do not want to establish a state they just want to be politically recognized (and also make rest of Syria federal if it is possible, diplomatically)

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Nevertheless, these young Kurdish volunteers are dying for the defense of PKK territory, for the nation

Again you are speaking at very abstract level and just ignore the possible massacre of Kurds. The situation is not just dying for nation, it is not as simple is that in the example of Kurds and all ethnicites living there (for example Turkmens or Christians)

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Dying is never in the interests of those who die.

A shocking revelation by Leo grin So I guess in this level we could denounce all of the communist history, that resulted in dying of even a single person? I did not know you were such a pasivist person.

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We will condemn the PKK who is sending these young volunteers to die as well as Daesh who kills them.

By reading this one gets the impression that PKK just wishes its men/women die and to do so sent them to Japan to fight or something. (Hello! YPG is defending the cities and countryside! They are in defensive war! There is a threat of massacre!)

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Being against the national war, the condemnation of both sides is the only policy which is in the interests of the soldiers who do the dying for the interests of their bosses.

Did I mentioned how I hate this "I know so much" but ordinary man/woman "knows shit" attitude?

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I'll say that every internationalist who's argued for this position here is far more emphatic towards the fighters who actually fight and die than all the PKK troll I've seen on this website put together.

But I guess they are just shy people, who avoid showing their affections grin

kurekmurek
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Nov 10 2014 14:05

By the way I am sorry again. I possibly should not wrote that note sad I honestly did not wrote it under the article itself, just because not to get involved with this discussion again. But whatever I do it tries to pull me in with all the same stuff again again. Please Leo at least let's not discuss it here. Let's discuss here what Zaher says (as I quoted him in the title).

Leo
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Nov 10 2014 14:28

I'm not going to discuss anything with you. I don't discuss with rape apologists. I believe I've already stated this more than once. I'm only responding to you in order to clarify issues for anyone who might read this thread. Hence I will only reply to two points:

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You just came up with Hatice Yasar, who is she? Why she is not mentioned in internationalist article in question, if she was so reliable? What she says?

I didn't just come up with Hatice Yasar, I posted the link to an article she'd written in the thread mentioned above. I'm of course not surprised that you haven't noticed, trolls tend not to read the arguements of other people very carefully. Unlike Mehmet Cahit Sener and Selim Curukkaya, Hatice Yasar was not from the PKK but another Kurdish nationalist organization who, nevertheless, maintained relations with a number of women in the PKK. Here's the article I linked to in the previous thread: https://www.newroz.com/tr/forum/331689/apocu-hareketin-lk-kurbanlar-kadi...

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A shocking revelation by Leo grin So I guess in this level we could denounce all of the communist history, that resulted in dying of even a single person? I did not know you were such a pasivist person.

The communist position is and has always been no war but the class war.

kurekmurek
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Nov 10 2014 15:16

I will reply back to you at home. But you can also read my comment where i replied back to you related to her (i not only read what you wrote but also replied back to you, who was trolling and not reading the other, by the way?) However I actually explicitly tried to say why YOU did not mention her in the article (itself), if she was so relaible?

Leo
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Nov 10 2014 15:42

No, you did not reply about that link or that person and you accused me of just coming up with Hatice Yasar a few hours earlier. I won't put blatantly lying past you at this point but in case you actually believe what you're saying, go back and read your own posts.

In any case your point is ridiculous - there is no obligation to use every resource in every article, the resources used were quite sufficient for an article of that length.

kurekmurek
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Nov 10 2014 20:24

This is what you wrote:

Quote:
As for the book, it used to be available online on a pro-PKK website as a pdf although it seems to have been taken down. Nevertheless, you can see referances to it on several websites and you can read the quote in Turkish here: https://www.newroz.com/tr/forum/331689/apocu-hareketin-lk-kurbanlar-kadi... It is also referred to as the December 1992 Analyses (Aralik 1992 Cozumlemeleri).

This was my reply:

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3) Yeah but these are the same quotes given to same text again again and again, so if you quote something that means it becomes hard evidence! Even the quote itself is not agressive itself, it is very egoistic maybe but. Come on do we condemn people now just by that, why are we obssesed to prove this without any evidence?

And the article you share does not mention any rape EXCEPT the one Mehmet Şener reported (he is leader of another Kurdish organization). However that is what I was exactly saying: Hatice Yasar and Selim Curukkaya only base their claims on Mehmet Sener. They do not say they witnessed rape at all. They do not say they have proof of any kind. They do not say they met with a woman that claimed she was raped by Ocalan. They do not say anyone except Mehmet Sener repots a rape. There is only Mehmet Sener's claim that Ocalan raped a (or many) woman. And I am saying it is very possibly just a political move to discredit someone. And she makes exactly the same reference where Ocalan "kind of" accepts he has relations with women guerrillas. We can find it macho maybe but it is not a rape. There is only Mehmet Sener's text, Ocalan's quote (from a book which I and you could not find) and two more texts that gives reference to it. And also ICC as the English translator of this proven factual important incident that shows the real face of PKK.

I wrote these before, here the first comment:
https://libcom.org/library/internationalism-only-response-kurdish-issue-...

Leo
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Nov 10 2014 21:15
Quote:
This was my reply:

Quote:
Yeah but these are the same quotes given to same text again again and again, so if you quote something that means it becomes hard evidence! Even the quote itself is not agressive itself, it is very egoistic maybe but. Come on do we condemn people now just by that, why are we obssesed to prove this without any evidence?

Ah, it seems I've missed you've vaguely referred to the link here, possibly because you were apologizing for Ocalan's admission of rape.

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Ocalan's quote (from a book which I and you could not find)

Actually I did find and post a link to another book which includes some part of the quote. Something which you also missed.

Quote:
And the article you share does not mention any rape EXCEPT the one Mehmet Şener reported (he is leader of another Kurdish organization). However that is what I was exactly saying: Hatice Yasar and Selim Curukkaya only base their claims on Mehmet Sener. They do not say they witnessed rape at all. They do not say they have proof of any kind. They do not say they met with a woman that cliamed she was raped by Ocalan. They do not say anyone except Mehmet Sener repots a rape. There is only Mehmet Sener's claim that Ocalan raped a (or many) woman.

No, Curukkaya reports conversation with people who were raped by Ocalan, so it's not just Mehmet Sener. Mehmet Sener and Curukkaya reported the same incident but with different examples. Curukkaya actually gave much more data but Mehmet Sener is generally given credit for first exposing the shocking conduct of Ocalan.

As for Hatice Yasar, it depends on how you read her. Her text is full of implicit references. Let's not miss the lively anectode where Ocalan criticized an 18 young woman in the PKK: "This element... has also whored, she is a despicable, vile whore who was degenerated by private war. Despite being in our magnificent prescence she contiued this degenracy, had filthied the name of our sacred... I want the execution of this incorrigable degenerate lumpen and bitch in the name of the invesigation commission." Go to sleep thinking of why the man you've wasted your days and nights trying to defend might have said something like that and why you're defending such a man so passionately.

I really don't want to have anything with you as a human being so please kindly refrain from replying to any of my posts. Turn of your computer and think about your life.

kurekmurek
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Nov 10 2014 21:31

Why you are lying?

Quote:
Actually I did find and post a link to the book. Something which you also missed.

What other thing I missed? You even admit you missed what I wrote. Anyway You did not find the link nor posted the book. Where is the book please share it? I really actually want to read it.

I will quote yourself from that libcom thread again:

Quote:
As for the book, it used to be available online on a pro-PKK website as a pdf although it seems to have been taken down. Nevertheless, you can see referances to it on several websites and you can read the quote in Turkish here: https://www.newroz.com/tr/forum/331689/apocu-hareketin-lk-kurbanlar-kadi... It is also referred to as the December 1992 Analyses (Aralik 1992 Cozumlemeleri).

Luckily, Ocalan's remarks are often compiled into other books so you can find part of the same quote in this book here, starting from page 372: https://rojbas1.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/kurdistanda-kadin-ve-aile.pd...

Even yourself admit you could not find the actual book. There is some references to it in another book OK. but I could not read the book to see whether the references are "accurate or not" or are they "out of context or not". You did not read the book also, but you are sure there Ocalan admits raping women however strangely (and illogically) we are discussing Ocalan's rape from third resources. How can you explain it?

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Mehmet Sener and Curukkaya reported the same incident but with different examples.

No, Curukkaya does not referense to rape the piece you make reference to.

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Mehmet Sener and Curukkaya reported the same incident but with different examples.

Where? Your reference of Curukkya in article does not mention any rape except the one he report from Mehmet Sener. Can you provide any examples from Curukkaya? (I mean a real example Curukkaya mentions anything concrete). He mentions Ocalan has relations with women. Do you consider having relations with women rape?

Quote:
As for Hatice Yasar, it depends on how you read her. Her text is full of implicit references. Let's not miss the lively anectode where Ocalan criticized an 18 young woman in the PKK: "This element... has also whored, she is a despicable, vile whore who was degenerated by private war. Despite being in our magnificent prescence she contiued this degenracy, had filthied the name of our sacred... I want the execution of this incorrigable degenerate lumpen and bitch in the name of the invesigation commission." Go to sleep thinking of why the man you've wasted your days and nights trying to defend might have said something like that and why you're defending such a man so passionately.

1) This speech has no references. Where it is from? 2) In article she does not claim these are words of Apo, and as there are no references I am not sure whose words is this. 3) What on the earth these has anything to do with Ocalan and rape accusations? We even have no idea why this girl is judged. She might be judged because she had a relation with another guerrilla. She might be judged because she had a relation with Ocalan. Hell she might even be judged because of a completely unrelated issue, but blamed to be a whore just to discredit her. According to what we are sure she was raped by Ocalan? (and more importantly according to what are you so sure?)

I can not even know on what we are speaking about now. What you provide as proof is always the same reference over and over again or another unrelated issue. You never provide original references and just link to texts that are very badly written just to frame Ocalan as rapist. For example if you search this quote (from Hatice the new one you focus now) in internet (for example this part: "fahişelik yapmış, özel savaş tarafından yozlaştırılmış, rezil, namussuz bir fahişedir.") You find only 1 reference and that is the one you share. how do you expect me to believe such obscure reference?

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Go to sleep thinking of why the man you've wasted your days and nights trying to defend might have said something like that and why you're defending such a man so passionately.

I do not get it. Why you are so emotional about this issue (except defending your own article) ? However we should make one thing clear here: only you are doing something (accusing of rape), I am just asking for you to back up your claim, You are saying Ocalan is a rapist. I just say according to what you claim that. however what you provide me as proof of it looks very dubious and insufficient. I am not saying anything like Ocalan is definitely did not raped anybody, or Ocalan is not macho etc... You are the one making the claim: I am the one asking for proof. That's all.

Leo
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Nov 10 2014 21:44

Here's Curukkaya's book (in Turkish): http://www.onergurcan.org/Mete%20Dural%20Kitapligi/METE/aponun%20ayetler... which reports more than a single specific incident.

kurekmurek
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Nov 10 2014 21:58

Can't you just reply back to what I ask you to? Where is the book you claim to be shared?

Yeah you are right onergurcan mentions she speak to a girl and she says Ocalan sexually assaulted her. I missed it I guess on the book (as you never referenced it exactly) So yeah Curukkaya also says she met a women who was assaulted by Ocalan. However I can not be sure if his account is correct. This is again a political game between three men to discredit each other that is played on two or three texts and missing quotes.