London Militant Atheists

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Jason Cortez
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Joined: 14-11-04
Oct 13 2006 19:24
Joseph K. wrote:
it's a famous email scam known as 'the 419', iirc because that's the section of the nigerian penal code which covers it, and most of the scammers are nigerian.

basically you get an email saying some millionaire needs to get his cash out of the country via a third party's account (yours). you are promised a hefty cut of the transaction, and all you have to do is pay the bank's 'admin fees' which have to be paid by the recipient account holder ...

oh one of those. As it happens i work for a top Nigrean bank in it's overseas department here in blighty and at present i am responcible for unused/unclaimed accounts amouting to £163m . As i am able to credit accounts to claiming relatives, i wondered if you would be interested in a business proprosition? I pick you because my contacts assure me you are a trustworthy person. How it works is i will need your bank details..............

Jason Cortez
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Joined: 14-11-04
Oct 13 2006 19:25

See thing is i can see the sun , feel it's heat so i don't need your mate to tell me anything.Just think about it.

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Joseph Kay
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Joined: 14-03-06
Oct 13 2006 19:28

GGG: look theres no evidence that mars is made of edam, but if i write a book saying it is, i'd be an idiot. believe what you want, but please don't start the whole 'you can't proove it either way' nonsense, if evidence points to god (or gods, or space lizards), i'll be inclined to believe it - but it doesn't.

there's a few half-decent moral parables in the bible, and a hell of a lot of crap rationalising subservience and slave-morality. i mean, to read the bible you have to pick and choose, because there are contradictions that tie the most fundamentalist in knots. And once you're picking and choosing, aren't you already half-way to forming your own ethical code and living by it, even if you cling to the security of a thousand years of traditon?

Even if there is an eternity, in the absence of any evidence at least, i want to live my life as if there isn't. What's moral about doing stuff out of hope for reward or fear of punishment?

edit: yeah jason, that's the scam, you're a natural wink

GGG
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Joined: 12-10-06
Oct 14 2006 06:26

Joseph,
I agree with you that if I wrote a book about God without any evidence, I wouldn't be so smart, but if I wrote a book , articles, etc. stating that I am 100 percent sure there is no God I would not be too smarter either. Have you noticed how many books have been written eg. in science that the facts are being verified but changed(corrected) later . Would you call those writers idiots. I wouldn't, I would give them credit. I agree with you that there is a lot of info about slave morality in the Bible, but don't you think this is what life is all about. Look at yourself, aren't you a slave right now? don't you work and behave in certain ways to get rewards ( eg.money), in fear of punishment if you don't perform , eg. at work, don't you already live in the fear of many other different things? Please don't tell me that you live free and especially fear-free life. When I believe in God my fear is much smaller. Let me give you a personal example: when I finished colledge and couldn't find a job, I started to feel hopeless. One night I got down on my knees and started to pray asking God to send somebody to help me because I've done everything I could to find one. The next morning I forgot about it because I didn't think it would happen. That morning a realtor whom I never met showed up at my door asking me if I would be interested in buying a house. I told her no because I did not even have a job. She asked me what kind of job I was looking for, and told me that she had a friend working in that field and would try to help me. She took my phone number and left. I thought it was just a nice talk and I would never hear back from her. I ended up getting that job and later finding out that her friend was a person working for God. If you wonder, that deed was for free and I didn't have to buy a house through that realtor. There are many examples I could write but there is no need and time.
You are right that there are many interpretation of the Bible. It is like many different beautiful cars that don't have an engine inside except one. You have to research which one it is. I am not asking you to believe, don't get me wrong. Faith is like a gift that you get when you deserve it. You don't need to be very upset when you are being asked some difficult questions. I noticed your friend Jason completely missed my point about the Sun. I talked about the life on the Sun (oxygen, plants, animals, humans, etc) and not the Sun itself. I will tell you one thing, if I didn't believe in God, I would spend my life fighting those who are exploiting and enslaving others and not the ones who are being slaves, helping others, and working for
God. May God be with you.

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Joseph Kay
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Joined: 14-03-06
Oct 14 2006 08:31
GGG wrote:
. stating that I am 100 percent sure there is no God I would not be too smarter either. Have you noticed how many books have been written eg. in science that the facts are being verified but changed(corrected) later .

of course, that's an epistimological truism; and science isn't even about being right, but a willingness to constantly revise theories in light of evidence. God, as described in the major religious texts at least, is not a hyposthesis supported by much evidence (certainly post-big bang, even if a divinity created the universe).

GGG wrote:
I will tell you one thing, if I didn't believe in God, I would spend my life fighting those who are exploiting and enslaving others

this is what i mean, i know you say belief lessons your worldy fears and anxieties - but i want to transform my worldly existence rather than take comfort in it's transience compared to an eternal beyond.

I mean, you're right, i am a wage slave, but that doesn't mean i need a slave-morality (which means adopting the inverted values of the powerful rather than creating values by free thought); in fact being a libertarian communist is part of me creating my 'own' values and ethics by which to live, and part of me escaping my wage slavery through collective action with others (i hope), rather than comforting myself that whatever the masters have is evil (wealth, power), so my relative poverty and powerlessness must be good.

As a point of interest, Nietzsche, the arch-atheist who invented the concept of 'slave morality' to attack christianity, actually praised Jesus (assuming he existed), as someone who was prepared to forge his own values in a corrupt world; he decried those who try and follow his words and not his example (of independent thought).