Bye bye, anarchism

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Oenomaus
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Mar 3 2012 01:57
Railyon wrote:
I don't know, the more I get into communist theory the less of a contradiction I see between those two. I'd go so far as calling myself a "marxist in the making", kinda - that however does not mean one has to share the same politics as "Marxists proper" (aka Trots, Leninists, most orthodox Marxists) as opposed to a mutual Marxist analysis.

In terms of actual organizational theory and practice, I don’t there really isn’t an awful lot of difference between (communist) anarchism and (non-Leninist) Marxism. Many organizational differences are purely based on definition, except for the relationship between political and economic power, certain tactical considerations, the question of federalism, etc. It is really in terms of theoretical analysis and conceptual framework where I think they differ the most, and at present I personally feel the Marxist one is stronger, more rigorous, and more coherent. I considered myself an anarchist for some time, disagreed with anarchism, and then was interested in the Situationists for a little bit without calling myself anything or bothering with any particular label. Then I read more about how the “Marxism proper” of Trotskyists, Leninists, and orthodox Marxists was an ideology that was created after Marx’s death, and that was incompatible with Marx’s theory and communism as a movement. Now I tend to consider myself a Marxist, while knowing, of course, the label isn’t the best one. I say “now” because I think I’m non-dogmatic enough to think I may not always consider myself a “Marxist” and could just drop the label. Some people just agree with Marx’s critique of political economy, consider themselves only communist, and chuck the rest of Marx, and that’s something I’m sympathetic to. Whatever one considers oneself, ultimately it is the movement of communism, “the real movement which abolishes the present state of things” (and not even necessarily the label), which I find to be the most important. Falling into a hard and fast opposition between anarchism and Marxism, as some users do on here, just strikes me as plain sectarianism, especially in light of the dogmatism that certain anarchists can still have when communicating to others.

Railyon wrote:
On a different side note, sometimes depression gets the better of me and I think "to hell with it all, I'll go Leninist" because it's the easy way out. Then common sense kicks in and I'm back on libcom.

I know what you mean and I definitely can understand. It is depressing enough what human beings have to cope with living everyday under this system, so it can become even more depressing when those who you think are conscious of it, those who have a strategy for truly putting an end to it, only seem to reinforce its ideological patterns of behavior and operation. You start to think every communist out there acts this way and, well, maybe it would just be in everyone’s interest to do what a minority of “fully conscious” people say so that human beings can be free. I don’t blame you – although I have not had Leninist-type feelings, I have had occasions where I started to feel misanthropic and highly pessimistic, especially after getting in heated arguments with right-wingers or after seeing someone say an incredibly stupid and inhuman thing. Then it may have taken a day or two or even longer, but rationality always kicked back right in again. This is why libcom in its finest moments, I think, can be one good way to for us to express ourselves and make sure our pent-up negative feelings can be used in a positive way.

Oenomaus
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Mar 3 2012 02:56
no.25 wrote:
I edited in "Also, I don't work with capitalists, 'anarcho' or otherwise," because some of my posts on this site demonstrate this dogmatism that we're discussing, it wasn't necessarily in reference to any specific segments of your post. To be honest, I doubt that I will ever be open to the prospect of collaborating with certain tendencies if they insist on adhering to their theoretical histories.

Well, you didn’t have to. tongue I don’t see what’s dogmatic about saying you don’t want to work with capitalists. If you said you didn’t even want to speak to someone with capitalist views or didn’t want to work with workers on strike who may think capitalism is great, then the claim of dogmatism would perhaps be justified. However, it is clear from what you said that you just do not want to collaborate with capitalists in any organizational work because, of course, your objectives are completely opposed. Honestly, I don’t think there’s been anything dogmatic in any of the posts of yours I’ve seen. As you said yourself, there is nothing dogmatic about accusing another communist of being “bourgeois” or “individualist.” I think it’s simply that we should only do so if they say or do something that is, in fact, bourgeois or individualist. Or unless we become Lenin kitties…

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no.25
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Mar 3 2012 04:57

I truly enjoy your posts Oenomaus, but sometimes I can't help but feel guilty for not being 'anarchist' enough. But hey whatever, I just want the shit to hit the fan so I can break some stuff.

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jef costello
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Mar 3 2012 22:12

Railyon if this is serious can I be in the secret police team that breaks into political opponents' houses and moves stuff around?

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Railyon
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Mar 4 2012 00:50

Yes, yes, you can all be!

After all, if I can't send people to the gulags, it's not my revolution, as Bob said!

And according to Hans Hoppe we'd all die in communism anyway because we had to ask every single fucker on this planet before we eat a bread roll!

So why not kill the peole... WITH bread rolls?!

Oenomaus
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Mar 4 2012 03:37

Certain people say in speaking of revolution that everyone will receive a bread roll. But we say that everyone will die from bread rolls, against those Trotskyite revisionist bastards.

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Entdinglichung
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Mar 6 2012 08:50

Railyon, if you are looking for an org where you can advance quickly to leadership positions, check out http://ciml.250x.com/index1.html

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Railyon
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Mar 6 2012 09:16

Baww, when I saw the (SH) I thought they mean the federal state... sad

I'm kinda interested in attending a MLP party meeting though. Just to see what it's like, maybe I can be their anarchist wing.

(Seriously though, I think Marx would be rolling in his grave if he knew what Marxism has turned into after his death)

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Entdinglichung
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Mar 6 2012 12:05
Railyon wrote:

I'm kinda interested in attending a MLP party meeting though. Just to see what it's like, maybe I can be their anarchist wing.

you mean an MLPD meeting ... pretty boring, as a friend told me

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Entdinglichung
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Mar 6 2012 12:15
Entdinglichung wrote:
Railyon wrote:

I'm kinda interested in attending a MLP party meeting though. Just to see what it's like, maybe I can be their anarchist wing.

you mean an MLPD meeting ... pretty boring, as a friend told me

p.s.:

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Railyon
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Mar 6 2012 12:27
Entdinglichung wrote:
you mean an MLPD meeting ... pretty boring, as a friend told me

I can imagine. Then again, there's more interesting stuff than FAU meetings too.

Also lol at that logo. What was the story behind that again? Anarcho-Stalinists?

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Entdinglichung
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Mar 6 2012 12:32
Railyon wrote:
Entdinglichung wrote:
you mean an MLPD meeting ... pretty boring, as a friend told me

I can imagine. Then again, there's more interesting stuff than FAU meetings too.

Also lol at that logo. What was the story behind that again? Anarcho-Stalinists?

one guy from Heidelberg (manager in an recruitment agency) who broke away from the FAU around 1980, he sat up his anarcho-stalinist party with around a dozen "mass organizations", the combined membership of them was never higher than 10, the group faded away after 2004

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Railyon
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Mar 6 2012 12:41

Ah, the weirdness of the German Left.

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Entdinglichung
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Mar 6 2012 13:35
Railyon wrote:
Ah, the weirdness of the German Left.

the left in the anglo-saxon world is far worse, possibly due to the strong influence of evangelicalism on its culture

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Railyon
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Mar 6 2012 13:43

They didn't have the DDR though.

I'll be totally honest, if I had been old enough when the DDR was still alive and kicking (well... relatively...), I would have moved there.

Yo dawg, I herd u liek workers revolutionz, so I put a workers revolution in your workers revolution so you can have a workers state in your workers state.

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Entdinglichung
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Mar 6 2012 14:19
Railyon wrote:
They didn't have the DDR though.

I'll be totally honest, if I had been old enough when the DDR was still alive and kicking (well... relatively...), I would have moved there.

Yo dawg, I herd u liek workers revolutionz, so I put a workers revolution in your workers revolution so you can have a workers state in your workers state.

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