Bye bye, anarchism

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Railyon's picture
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Mar 1 2012 14:23
Bye bye, anarchism

"Democracy" is a bourgeois myth, I'm gonna join the party now.

No seriously, I know someone who was labeled bourgeois because he advocated simple majority voting instead of consensus, so why not got all the way and go FULL STALINISM

All this talk of community decisions and stuff in the freedom to bear arms thread made me realize we need a Führer DEAR LEADER to carve our path; after all the communist system envisioned by some posters here with delegates on a global scale does not seem any different from state politics, so why not keep them if we reinstate them anyway.

I hereby declare my withdrawal from libertarian politics, see you on RevLeft!

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Mar 1 2012 14:39

I'm only into socialism cos I want my face on banners and statues of me all over the country. Smash dissent, set up gulags, and gimme a fucking luxury car already.

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Mar 1 2012 14:47

The contradiction of libertarian communism is that people still want to set up gulags by another name and shoot dissidents and counter-revolutionaries, there is no practical difference to what Stalin did.

Just a bit fluffier and more theoretically sound.

But still a duck.

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Mar 1 2012 14:57

who said democracy was a bourgeois myth? I was just playing devils advocate on that thread btw.

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Mar 1 2012 15:06
Arbeiten wrote:
who said democracy was a bourgeois myth?

My logical conclusion concerning various local "libertarian leftist" groups.

They're batshit insane, like you get the boot if you eat meat in their infoshops and stuff. And if someone leaves a steak in their fridge, they don't get irritated, they get violent.

And if the anti-authoritarian left can't work together, there is no hope for a proletarian revolution.

Also, dictatorship is easier hands down

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Mar 1 2012 17:28

for communism without adjectives!

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Bob Savage
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Mar 1 2012 17:38

If I can't send people to the gulags, it's not my revolution.

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Mar 1 2012 18:15

Democratic-Centralism or nothing.

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Mar 1 2012 18:51

Come build the party, comrades!

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Mar 1 2012 19:21

Only if it's HOXHAIST. PROTEST REVISIONIST CORRUPTION.

On a serious note, I don't consider delegation to be a reproduction of the 'state,' in that delegates would have the inability to act autonomously, and would be strictly mandated to the policies of their assemblies.

But yeah, democracy is a myth, we're just going to have to settle for Bolshevism.

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Mar 1 2012 19:55
no.25 wrote:
On a serious note, I don't consider delegation to be a reproduction of the 'state,' in that delegates would have the inability to act autonomously, and would be strictly mandated to the policies of their assemblies.

Maybe this fear is a residue of INDIVIDUALISM and LIFESTYLISM but you know, the spectre of class society is everywhere...

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Mar 2 2012 01:13
Railyon wrote:
freedom to bear arms thread

And where were you on that thread Railyon? You're one of the few posters who demonstrates thoughtfulness and simultaneous comprehensibility. One of the vanguard, dare I say.

EDIT and this is before I read your "[revol68 is] one of the few posters" post on the VEGAN CLUB thread.

Oenomaus
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Mar 2 2012 06:41

No, Railyon! Stalin's henchmen have remade your brain! cry

But, yes, to add to what no.25 said: it sort of complicates things when you also have left communists such as Bordiga and his followers who follow Bolshevism in believing democracy is inherently a bourgeois myth and that the party is pretty much everything. The difference though is that, from Bordiga’s perspective and definition, Stalinists are among the most who are representative of “democracy.” Bordiga was definitely an anti-Stalinist (he even publicly told off Stalin to his face), and while he called himself a Leninist, he nevertheless had strong disagreements with Lenin’s post-1917 positions. But I’ve never been able to understand Bordiga’s logic: what would he propose regarding delegation? How could he argue that delegates should have the inability to act autonomously and should be strictly mandated if he says the party is everything? And I don’t think there is such a thing as a “wrong” or “incorrect” definition per se, but I can’t understand Bordiga’s motivation for defining democracy in such a rather useless way, except, perhaps, through Lenin’s influence. In doing so, Bordiga, as a left communist, seemed to complicate exactly what “libertarian communism” should mean…

Or maybe I just have sluggish schizophrenia. Anyone want to scoop out my brain?

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Mar 2 2012 01:29
Pikel wrote:
Railyon wrote:
freedom to bear arms thread

And where were you on that thread Railyon?

Didn't feel like posting as there's nothing I could contribute really.

Was vehemently anti-gun before I became a commie, so I'm still kinda restructuring my thoughts on the whole issue.

Also, the involvement of a few particular posters was frightening me off (ALIENATING, if you will), I'm not too keen on being labeled "individualist" and "not a communist" just because I don't agree with some people here on all issues*. tongue

FWIW I'm now also on RevLeft, yeah it's a giant shithole but I'll do it analogous to Churchill and "get more out of it than it does out of me".

*aka the "non-vangard non-party party line"

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Mar 2 2012 02:08
Oenomaus wrote:
Or maybe I just have sluggish schizophrenia. Anyone want to scoop out my brain?

Nah, Bordiga's writings on democracy were unsettling to me, so I ceased further investigation of him. I pretty much agree with you. If social revolution takes place within our lifetimes, I feel that we need to do everything in our ability to ensure that a bureaucratic dictatorship doesn't institute itself above the working class again.

Lol Railyon, you 'bourgeois individualist,' conform to the non-party party line or it's 10 years of hard labor in the gulags for you.

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Mar 2 2012 03:38

Oenomaus
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Mar 2 2012 05:55
no.25 wrote:
Nah, Bordiga's writings on democracy were unsettling to me, so I ceased further investigation of him. I pretty much agree with you. If social revolution takes place within our lifetimes, I feel that we need to do everything in our ability to ensure that a bureaucratic dictatorship doesn't institute itself above the working class again.

Indeed. It's just, well, complicating and troublesome that you have, on the one hand, very vanguard left communists such as Bordiga and on the other, non-party party anarchists who find their own vanguard niche on this website. Last time I checked, I thought left communist and anarchist people were, you know, fundamentally communist (or “libertarian communist,” if you like). The idea that you should dogmatically dismiss others as “individualist” if they disagree with you, for instance, seems quite far from what would be the potential of democratic discourse in a communist society. I think it just goes to show more and more that the whole question of “Marxism vs. Anarchism” in issues of revolution and organization has always been a red herring, and that it boils down much more to people who incorporate capitalist norms into their actions and thought.

It's not that I mean to engage in another “hashing out” of criticisms of certain radicals, or that any of us are somehow perfect and all. It’s just that it’s quite ridiculous to still see this after all of the mistakes made in the 20th century -- it continues to hamper not only our self-determination, but our very ability to communicate with one another in a decent way.

And Birthday Pony, how on earth did you find a cat who looks just like Lenin? The resemblance is uncanny.

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Mar 2 2012 05:57

1. Search for "Lenin Cat"
2. Discover Lenin Cat meme
3. Discover memegenerator
4. ????
5. PROFIT

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Mar 2 2012 08:27

I'm not exactly qualified to respond to your post at this moment, but I will attempt to do so anyway.

Quote:
Indeed. It's just, well, complicating and troublesome that you have, on the one hand, very vanguard left communists such as Bordiga and on the other, non-party party anarchists who find their own vanguard niche on this website

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, care to elaborate?

Quote:
The idea that you should dogmatically dismiss others as “individualist” if they disagree with you, for instance, seems quite far from what would be the potential of democratic discourse in a communist society.

I wholeheartedly agree, any democratic society would both allow for and encourage minority dissent. 'Bourgeois individualist' has been a disparagement thrown from the authoritarian to the anti-authoritarian Left carelessly for quite some time; 'infantile disorder' instantly comes to mind. That's not to say that everyone who accuses an anarchist or whatever of being bourgeois is inherently authoritarian, but just that it is relatively simple to castigate someone that you disagree with as being it.

Quote:
I think it just goes to show more and more that the whole question of “Marxism vs. Anarchism” in issues of revolution and organization has always been a red herring, and that it boils down much more to people who incorporate capitalist norms into their actions and thought.

I've only superficially studied Left-Communism as of yet, but the Left-Communists that I happen to be familiar with are both admirable and affable in their conception of revolution, the role of revolutionaries, and the 'state.' How exactly that manifests itself into praxis may be an entirely different scenario, but as far as I'm concerned, as a communist I would be happy to consider them as comrades until irreconcilable conflict were to arise.

But Bordiga? Democracy is imperative to me, and I'd imagine the entire working class.

Also, I don't work with capitalists, 'anarcho' or otherwise.

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Mar 2 2012 09:33

Can't resist. Must. Not. Post. Silly. Pictures.

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Mar 2 2012 10:37

I think that Birthday Pony might have been able to save the meme thread if he'd got in there early…

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Mar 2 2012 11:22
Oenomaus wrote:
Last time I checked, I thought left communist and anarchist people were, you know, fundamentally communist (or “libertarian communist,” if you like). The idea that you should dogmatically dismiss others as “individualist” if they disagree with you, for instance, seems quite far from what would be the potential of democratic discourse in a communist society.

I was actually serious when I said that I shy away from some discussions because of this. Now there aren't many people here that actually do that, but always having to watch your back so you don't say anything "uncommunist-y" does not a good posting climate make... maybe I'm exaggerating here though. The thing is, I usually agree with the points those people make but this Reverse McCarthyism is absolutely ridiculous. ("Ah! I see bourgeois modes of thinking in that argument! You cannot possible be a communist")

Individualist boogeymen around every corner, apparently.

Oenomaus wrote:
I think it just goes to show more and more that the whole question of “Marxism vs. Anarchism” in issues of revolution and organization has always been a red herring, and that it boils down much more to people who incorporate capitalist norms into their actions and thought.

I don't know, the more I get into communist theory the less of a contradiction I see between those two. I'd go so far as calling myself a "marxist in the making", kinda - that however does not mean one has to share the same politics as "Marxists proper" (aka Trots, Leninists, most orthodox Marxists) as opposed to a mutual Marxist analysis.

On a different side note, sometimes depression gets the better of me and I think "to hell with it all, I'll go Leninist" because it's the easy way out. Then common sense kicks in and I'm back on libcom.

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Mar 2 2012 18:30
no.25 wrote:
Quote:
Indeed. It's just, well, complicating and troublesome that you have, on the one hand, very vanguard left communists such as Bordiga and on the other, non-party party anarchists who find their own vanguard niche on this website

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, care to elaborate?

I was just being facetious regarding anarchists on this site who implicitly argue you have to stick to, as Railyon put it, the "non-vanguard non-party party line." wink

no.25 wrote:
That's not to say that everyone who accuses an anarchist or whatever of being bourgeois is inherently authoritarian, but just that it is relatively simple to castigate someone that you disagree with as being it.

I couldn't agree more. Genuine critiques, including self-critiques, are often evaded by resorting to the method of defamation. A really open-minded analysis, which investigates all the factors without preconceptions, might lead to conclusions that contradict the very ones we uphold. If we are not afraid of being wrong, then I think we should always be willing to listen to what others we disagree with have to say. I'm not a big fan of Nietzsche, but I actually like this quote by him: “A very popular error: having the courage of one's convictions; rather it is a matter of having the courage for an attack on one's convictions.

no.25 wrote:
Also, I don't work with capitalists, 'anarcho' or otherwise.

Agreed. By "people who incorporate capitalist norms into their actions and thought," I meant those who incorporate much of capitalist ideology whether they are aware of it or not: party/state fetishism that builds "from the outside," the cult of the individual, dogmatism, immediate and unthinking rejection of other viewpoints, absolute good vs. evil dualism, etc. Sometimes the ideology will be so laden that little difference can be found between them and capitalists.

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Mar 2 2012 17:53
Steven. wrote:
I think that Birthday Pony might have been able to save the meme thread if he'd got in there early…

Oh, I found the meme thread, my friend.

@Raiylon, why are you a communist (little c)? I don't mean that as an interrogation, but a question of motive. Are you a communist because you see labor robbed and workers oppressed and murdered or because you want to please the communist gods? If the former, you're going to have a hard time finding something better than anarchism, whether or not you're really a closeted bourgeois individualist.

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Mar 2 2012 19:10
Birthday Pony wrote:
@Raiylon, why are you a communist (little c)? I don't mean that as an interrogation, but a question of motive. Are you a communist because you see labor robbed and workers oppressed and murdered or because you want to please the communist gods? If the former, you're going to have a hard time finding something better than anarchism, whether or not you're really a closeted bourgeois individualist.

Communist gods, interesting concept... tongue

No seriously, if you allude to my (periodical) pessimism over workers' struggles, I see the state as the "easy way out" because that means you don't actually have to take part in the pesky stuff like engaging in active grass roots class struggle, breaking the hegemony and helping people develop a class consciousness (and analysis). In that regard, and I don't know who wrote it, if controlling the state means controlling the ideological apparatus, and bottom-up struggle is futile, it would appear logical to seize the state and "swap their ideology with ours".

Seeing how this bears both practical AND theoretical contradictions and shortcomings, I revert back to the position of "the state must go".

It kinda frightens me to have thoughts in that direction however...

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Mar 2 2012 19:59

Well, you're an anarchist whether you like it or not, so concentrate on what can be done rather than what can't. Anything short of FULL COMMUNISM is probably fail, tho.

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Mar 2 2012 20:21

If I'm not sure whether I am an anarchist or not, how can you be? tongue

I'm afraid that I will wake up one day and go FULL MARXISM-LENINISM

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Mar 2 2012 20:31

Find some old anarkies. They'll tell ya that the young ones are always goin' FULL COMMUNISM while they're the ones starting food security programs and organizing against gentrification. This does, however, make them individualist scum*, but they still seem comfortable calling themselves libertarian communists, and old anarchists have more scorn for all of society than anyone else.

*INDIVIDVALIST SCVM would make a good punk band, punk song, or album name.

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Mar 2 2012 21:09
Oenomaus wrote:
I couldn't agree more. Genuine critiques, including self-critiques, are often evaded by resorting to the method of defamation. A really open-minded analysis, which investigates all the factors without preconceptions, might lead to conclusions that contradict the very ones we uphold. If we are not afraid of being wrong, then I think we should always be willing to listen to what others we disagree with have to say. I'm not a big fan of Nietzsche, but I actually like this quote by him: “A very popular error: having the courage of one's convictions; rather it is a matter of having the courage for an attack on one's convictions.”

Yeah, not too fond of Nietzsche myself, but it's possible to glean aphorisms from him on occasion. I've come to my convictions over a long period of time, and if anything I had doubted them more in the process of their early development; studying Marx and Marxists only fortified them. I may at times be frivolous in the repudiation of others' perspectives, but that's probably because at one time I may have considered their feasibility. I think that most humans are guilty of this, and I am certainly not free of it.

Oenomaus wrote:
Agreed. By "people who incorporate capitalist norms into their actions and thought," I meant those who incorporate much of capitalist ideology whether they are aware of it or not: party/state fetishism that builds "from the outside," the cult of the individual, dogmatism, immediate and unthinking rejection of other viewpoints, absolute good vs. evil dualism, etc. Sometimes the ideology will be so laden that little difference can be found between them and capitalists.

That would be the ideological constraints of class society for you, I concur. I edited in "Also, I don't work with capitalists, 'anarcho' or otherwise," because some of my posts on this site demonstrate this dogmatism that we're discussing, it wasn't necessarily in reference to any specific segments of your post. To be honest, I doubt that I will ever be open to the prospect of collaborating with certain tendencies if they insist on adhering to their theoretical histories.

I apologize if my response is sub-par, I'm not feeling well at the moment

Railyon wrote:
On a different side note, sometimes depression gets the better of me and I think "to hell with it all, I'll go Leninist" because it's the easy way out.

'Insert Karl Marx cliche here.'

For a communist/anarchist to convert to Leninism is to give up on human liberation, something that from being acquainted with your posts I'd say that you cherish. At times I experience depression over this shit society, but I feel that entertaining notions of Leninism is entirely invalid.

Revleft man, it's getting to you, don't sweat it!

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Mar 2 2012 21:43

Well, I used Leninism just as a cliche example though tongue

FYI I am not really active on RevLeft yet because I never got a fucking activation mail. So I can'T even post. And the stuff they write about... ugh.

Wheat from the chaff dudes.

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Mar 3 2012 01:25

Lol, it's all good.

There's some great posters at Revleft, but there's a lot of garbage over there as well, so I hear ya. In my opinion, it just doesn't get any better than Libcom.

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