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An Interview w/ IWW Barista Alex van Schaick by Andrej Grubacic [Z Magazine]

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Steven.
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Jul 2 2007 11:53
pghwob wrote:
but nobody has challenged anyone to a duel here.

Or called mine and Joseph's mums whores. But still if Chomsky and Zinn signed a letter saying that it would possibly be the best thing ever.

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Joseph Kay
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Jul 2 2007 11:56

grin

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Joseph Kay
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Jul 2 2007 11:58
Quote:
Felt like Libcom is run by a bunch of pussies and pissant mooks? Here's your fucking proof.

The words of the moderators Joseph K and John. have finally fucking succeeded in pissing me off to an extensive fucking degree. I made contact on the Licbom website with the intention to open relaitons between the League and Libcoms community, and in truth, I found a number of good people amongst the vistors the website. However at every turn these two limp-dick moderators have sought to ban me, delete my posts and generally fuck me around on their precious little website.

I'd make it clear to all those who think Jonny Toy Boy and Jospeh KKK are sane, rational and well read people to consider what their motives are behind their creep-up-behind-you-and-stab-you-in-the-throat "politics" exactly are.

I'll make it plain.

Fuck them. They want to fuck things for us, then be assured we won't take it laying down with our legs spread like the whores who spawned these two fucking stronzes.

Thanks for listening, take it easy now,

Barkan
Michael Albert, ZNet
Irina Ceric, Global Balkans
Noam Chomsky, author
John J Cronan Jr, Students for a Democratic Society, IWW Food and
Allied Workers Union
Mary Dearborn, New York Metro Alliance of Anarchists
David Graeber, author of Fragments of Anarchist Anthropology
Daniel Gross, IWW Starbucks Workers Union
Edward Herman, social critic
Brian Kelly, Students for a Democratic Society
Tom Keefer, Upping the Antti
Eric Laursen, New York Metro Alliance of Anarchists; Member, National
Writers Union.
Brooke Lehman, Institute for Social Ecology, Bluestockings books
Staughton Lynd, labor historian
Alex van Schaick, IWW Starbucks Campaign
Marina Sitrin, author of Horizontalism: Voices of Popular Power in
Argentina
Chris Spannos, ZNet
Ziga Vodovnik, author of Ya Basta!
Tamara Vukov, Globalbalkans
Howard Zinn, radical historian

(parody - post real, signatories not except for Barkan)

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Nate
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Jul 2 2007 14:52

You'll notice that Grubacic didn't sign, cuz he's down w/ libcom.

Ivan
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Jul 11 2007 14:45

I stopped myself several times from interfering in this silly “debate” about Andrej’s political stands, about his personal history and his mental health. Maybe I should react before, to stand for a friend, but I am usually avoiding pointless chatting on forums, and Andrej is a big boy.
But admin - named removed lies and manipulations on Jugoremedija workers were just about too much.

Dear comrade Trivunac,

When exactly did you heard Zdravko Deuric (I believe he is “social democratic leader" of Jugoremedija workers you are talking about) saying that workers-shareholders of Jugoremedija are going to sell their share of the factory to a “good” capitalist? Was it said in public, or he told it to you in person? Have you even ever met the man? I am working closely with him and with the others from Jugoremedija for the last four years, and I never heard such a thing from any of them. On the other hand, i heard Zdravko dozens of times saying in public that Jugoremedija workers are going to keep the control over the factory, i heard him hundreds of times arguing in Serbian press that the Republic of Serbia should treat equally companies owned by one boss, with the companies managed by the workers-shareholders. He is also always saying that Jugoremedija WILL ABSTAIN AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE FROM SELLING THE SHARES THEY HAVE IN OTHER FACTORIES! As you probably know, Jugoremedija is 37% owner in “Medela” from Vrbas and 31% owner in “Luxol” from Zrenjanin. In last few months, Jugoremedija put its shares together with the workers-shareholders of these factories, and they together took over the control over “Medela” and “Luxol”. I believe it is not necessary to remind you on the notorious fact that Jugoremedija is still in 3,2 million EUR debt they inherited from the mafioso management, so it is quite a challenge for a “socialdemocrat” Zdravko not to sell Jugoremedija’s shares in other two comrade factories, and not to save Jugoremedija from bankruptcy. Two weeks ago, on the annual assembly of shareholders of “Medela”, Jugoremedija voted together with the “Medela” workers against sharing the last year profit, but for investing it into production. If they didn’t do so, Jugoremedija could pull 1,7 million EUR out from “Medela”. It would help them a lot, but it would probably cause closing down of “Medela” by the end of this year, since “Medela” was also savagely robbed by the former management that was controlled by two of the worst “democratic tycoons” in Serbia, Jovica Stefanovic – Nini and Predrag Rankovic – Peconi. Of course, I am not saying that Jugoremedija will not have to sell “Medela” or “Luxol” at the end, in order to save their own skin, but for the moment they are dong their best to recover Jugoremedija from its own production, not from selling the other comrades out. What a capitalist strategy!

The most amazing thing about your bullshitting on Zdravko, is that only few months ago, in the interview you gave for Z mag, you were saying that Jagodinska pivara brewery was took over by its workers! This pathetic exaggeration and embarrassing ignorance caused lots of laughs here in Serbia, since apparently everybody but you knows what actually happened in Jagodinska pivara – the state broke the contract it made with the capitalist on selling 70% of the brewery, and the brewery is going on privatization again. You were probably confused with the fact that the breaking of the contract was caused by the long strike of brewery workers, who were asking the boss to fulfill his contract obligation concerning them. Still, you could at least read the headlines in Belgrade daily press, since most of them quoted the union leader of Jagodinska pivara saying that the workers are only asking for fast re-privatization, and for selling company to a solid «strategic partner»!

About «taking the middle line between dictatorship of proletariat and dictatorship of capital», let me inform you about some more facts you could learn from reading newspapers headlines. Jugoremedija is 42% owned by the state, and 58% by the 4500 small shareholders. Only about half of this 58% package is owned by the workers and pensioners of the factory. The other half belongs to the people who used their right on free shares in Milosevic's privatization, but who are not linked in any way with the factory. These outside-the-factory shareholders were fully supporting the fight of the workers for the last four years, they never voted together with Stefanovic, always giving their powers of attorney to Emilija Mihajlovic and Zdravko Deuric (representatives of the workers in the assembly of Jugoremedija). Still, the outside shareholders are the shareholders in a very capitalist way, and they don't have the same interest as workers-shareholders. Most of them are common, decent people, workers of some other factories who were supporting the fight in Jugoremedija like it was their own. But one day they will be tempted to sell their shares on the stock market... So, if the workers-shareholders wants to keep the control over Jugoremedija, they will have to find a common interest with the out-the-factory shareholders. Their future freedom depends on understanding and clear agreement with the comrades who are not workers, but only private owners of Jugoremedija (although themselves workers, but somewhere else). Does now «middle line between dictatorship of proletariat and dictatorship of capital» sounds less social democratic to you?

Of course, as an «activist» of the few-buddies Belgrade collective that exists only on international internet forums, you couldn't do better.

And yeah, about Freedom Fight's name in English – have you ever been in Zrenjanin, or in your workers-operated brewery in Jagodina? Take this as my very honest invitation to visit Jugoremedija sometimes. We desperately need more men with your kind of energy, but a bit more focused on real life issues.

Yours truly,

Ivan Zlatic, journalist, activist of Union Workers-Shareholders of Serbia and Freedom Fight

ludilo
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Jul 12 2007 18:12

Let me try to explain. From knowledge and experience with both. They are both fucked up. Ratitvor is a son of admin: name removed or *Bloody admin: name removed* as his workers are calling him. He is a robber barron of Serbia involved with a primitive accummulation of serbia riches. Mr. T He is a manager of Hajat Hotel but a more important thing is that he is a tajkun and a oligarch who is one of the most important people behind a Democratic Party. He was a president of a Union of Serbian Employers. All this is on web. He is a owner of many enterprises all over this country and he is one of *rulers* of a country. Every second beakery in Belgrade is his. He is bying everything to Ratismor and just bouhgt him a new house that is to become a anarchist library! embarrassed Some anarchist! ASI is five people if that, and they all change every year-except Ratitvor who is always lying about it on web! What an *anarchist*! Anarcho capitalist more likely! roll eyes

Trubacic is no better. He is fucked up, much the same way. He is a academic. Very arogant. Talks to you like you are his servant. Loves the tv. He only likes his career. Same with his friend Ivana Momcilovic who is not even anarchist but communist (leninist)! These are people he likes! red star Trubacic loves big names like Comski and likes to be in spotlight all the time. He only writes for elitistic magazines.That is why he organized (useless) pga conference where everyone was working for him. Big shot academic, my ass! He is useless for a movement. Both should leave and go to Cyprus, where Trivunac Senior is acused of having his money hidden. hand And Trubacic can analyze movements there. I believe both of them are really friends as they are so much alike and dont talk about anything else but each other. wall

rata
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Jul 13 2007 11:02

Dear comrade Zlatic,

I'm currenttly outside of Belgrade, and my access to internet is very limited and slow. Therefore I can not spend time googling the internet, looking for statements of the people from Jugoremedija regarding their future plans. This is where I found the quotes I used. Next issue of our magazine (septembre-octobre one) will bring a pice by a comrade from the union on workers-shareholding with examples, quotes etc. and it will be translated to english. When I was talking to one of the comrades from FF about that issue, he told me that he thinks it's ok to hide your intentions some times in order to gain something. I don't really think it goes that way. I don't think you can gain things, if you are hiding what you want.

Jugoremedija and other "workershareholder" projects in Serbia are the ways the social-democracy is trying to gain it's feet in Serbia. That issue is too complicated and long to go into details now, as I said I'm not at home, don't have my archive at hand, and don't have enough time to discuss it now. Z mag, crew around it, Jugoremedija and other examples of workers shareholding, while using desparate situation of the workers, who are faced with fiering and buying of by wild capitalists, are building the foundation for non-existant social-democraticmovement in Serbia. Many people that got involved, including yourself, who are coming from social-democratic position, are seeing that as a way forward. I don't think so. Social-democracy didn't work before WWII, it will not work now. The thing is that there is no middle way between dictatorship of proletariat and dictatorship of capital.

I never gave any interview for Z mag, so I don't really know what are you talking about. I did several times publiclly speak about Jagodina beerfactory, and the informations I got were first hand, since we have comrades in the union who are from the villages around Jagodina, and who were in contastant contact with the workers of the factory. Factory was taken over by the workers, demanding respecting of the contaract. When that didn't happen, workers took over the factory, and engaged in phisical confrontation, using metal bars and acid, against the security which was brought on them. That is something we, anarcho-syndicalists, call direct action. Comparing them to worker-shareholders, who are owners of other factories that they are probabbly going to sell is really out of line.

I was in Zrenjanin many times, sometimes for work, sometimes for union activities, in fact we have a local group in Zrenjanin. I never went to Jagodina, but as I said, our members who are from villages around Jagodina visited the workers, during their occupation of the factory, many times.

To repeat again, I didn't want this thread to turn into the talk about Jugoremedija, FF or Z mag. That was the result of Grubacic ("friend") interventions and interpretations. Same goes for his lapdogs, such as this "ludilo", who was his right-hand in DSM, now defunct PGA collective. You will note the suptile critique of both sides, which is helping the "honest" aproach to the topic. I would like to ask the moderators to delete his post which is full of lies (just to show how idiotic the lies presented here are, we can take a claime that my father is "one of the most important people behind a Democratic Party" - when Serbian Prime Minister Djindjic, president of the Democratic party, was killed, I was arrested because of the statement called Sudden death of a mobster that our union posted when that happened; believe me, if my father was such a big shot, and even linked to that party, nothing like that would happen, I would have not been arrested during the martial law, wouldn't be denied lawyer, held in prison etc.) personal info, and is there just to slander me, and our union. As I said before, those people are idiotic enough, not to understand that enough of regular posters to this forum were in Belgrade, to know that the whole slandering thing is idiotic. As you will notice none of these people is capable in engagin in any other discussion here. Number of their posts is usually 1 or 2. This is because they are not libertarian communists, they are social-democrats, or liberal "anarchists", and this is why they have a lot of problems of understanding anarchist critique.

Ivan
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Jul 16 2007 14:12

Dear comrade,

Looks like we will have to wait for you to return to Belgrade and find the "incriminating" statements by the people from Jugoremedija.

Take your time...

And about how we, the "social democrats" are fighting, you will be glad to read that between March and August 2004 workers-shareholders of Jugoremedija were keeping the factory under their occupation, that at least once they successfully defended Jugoremedija from the attack organized by Nini's private security, and that on August 19th 2004 they were kicked out by joint action of Zrenjanin police, Belgrade Gendarmes (special unit of the Serbian police), and again Nini's private army. Four of the leaders of the occupation were arrested and kept in prison for four days, and then charged for "disturbing peace", "causing public danger" and such shit. Criminal proceedings against them are still not finished.

Needless to say that all these facts are very well known all around Serbia.

On March 1st 2007 workers-shareholders of Jugoremedija took the factory back, this time after the Supreme Court's order. That's the way we fight - with both direct and legal action. Same as the comrades in Jagodinska pivara - they occupied factory in order to press the boss to fulfill the contract. They won, the state broke the contract with the boss, and that is great! I was involved in several strikes of the similar kind (Nemetali from Vranjska Banja, Vencac from Arandjelovac, and most recently Beogradfilm from Belgrade). Some were successful, some not, and I still believe it is important to support those who are fighting only for the workers rights, not for taking over the factories. The only thing I don't get is where do you see the line between those strikes and Jugoremedija? Why is it "social democratic" to take over the factory with using the property rights (shares), but it is "anarchist" to press the boss to respect his privatization contract with the state? We really do see Jugoremedija as important victory for all the workers in Serbia, and at the moment we are discussing the best way how to use the Jugoremedija experience and their achievement to help the other comrades, who are not major owners of their factories, to establish certain level of workers control over management. If you "anarchists" were good enough to stop privatization in Serbia, we "social democrats" wouldn't have to do any of these things, but unfortunately you have failed. That if you can remind me of one single action you did to prevent privatization in 2001, and to save us from the miserable job we are doing now.

Anyway, the new strategy of our Union, after the Jugoremedija victory, will start this autumn, and I hope your associate who is writing about "the worker-shareholder projects" will inform the public about it correctly. Thanks very much for being interested in our work!

And yes, of course we were hiding our intentions all this time as much as we could, and yes, of course we are still doing it. What else do you expect us to do? To go to the Ministry of Economy, or to some tycoon who got his eye on Jugoremedija and to inform them about our future steps? Give me a break!

One more thing - please, don't mix the other shit that was said during this discussion with your response to me. I never used "the father argument", I consider it very dirty (as dirty as your "arguments" against Andrej, doesn't meter if he is my friend and associate or not, and he is, for good reasons!), at least absolutely irrelevant for what all this is about - can we do something to stop the few Serbian families and the few corporations from abroad to gain total control over the Serbian economy and over our life?

With both legal and direct means!

Best,

Ivan

PS Interview or not, your statement about Jagodinska pivara was published in Z mag, and it was untrue. Better check what your Jagodina branch is doing down there!

Ivan
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Jul 16 2007 17:35

A slice of atmosphere from the summer 2004 in
Jugoremedija, the day when "social democratic"
workers-shareholders kicked Nini's private army out
from the factory.

Catch 22
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Jul 16 2007 17:38
MJ wrote:
What I really don't get is why Graeber and Grubacic are both now so interested in (and in??) the IWW just three years after writing that stupid sectarian piece talking about the "generation gap" and saying those in the IWW, NEFAC and the IWA "still have not shaken the sectarian habits of the last century." (Very, very few NEFACers can be described as "those whose political formation took place in the 60s and 70s" by the way!) This just doesn't seem like a relationship they and the IWW are likely to benefit from equally...

Graeber talks highly of the heady days of syndicalism at the turn of the century. So it doesn't surprise me that much that he's gotten involved with the IWW as much as he has. Still his politics are pretty flawed. Non violent to the extreme, postmodernist, etc.

rata
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Jul 16 2007 18:04
Ivan wrote:
Looks like we will have to wait for you to return to Belgrade and find the "incriminating" statements by the people from Jugoremedija.

Comrade,

In fact you don´t need to wait till I´m back. I remembered that the comrade who is writing the text has special tags for that article ("Small capitalists") on his Delicious. You can access them here: http://del.icio.us/sabate/mali_kapitalisti If you brows through them, youĺl find different text in which the people you mention are talking about their goals of selling their shares on the stock market etc. I did not go through them, as I said my access to internet is really poor here, and I do think this issue deserves a special topic to which, I hope, the text I mentioned will be a good addition. I´m sorry I used answer to you to deal with the idiot above, but it all goes back to the limited time I had for writing this messages. Again, as I said previously, I never wrote anything about personal life of Grubacic, I was exclusevly dealing with the positions he presented in his works, and actions he has taken as "activist", or, should I say, "engaged intellectual".

It seams here that the major problem we have in understanding our differences is that you believe that workers ownership of factories equals to ex-workers owning the shares of the company. This is why I see your understanding as social-democratic. I do know you for a longer period, I do believe you are a honest comrade. That doesen´t, on the other side, mean I will spare you the critique.

I hope we will continue this debate, over here when I get back home, as well as face to face when we have a chance. But I really don´t think that call for stoping several families and few corporations in their goals is a revolutionary one, in fact in that we can again find your social-democratic positions. I dont think the difference would be made if it was several thousands of families, and hundreds of foreign corporations. Small-scale capitalism is not a better option to monopolist one. I would propose to you to glance at this text http://ca.geocities.com/red_black_ca/mcdoce.htm, when you have a chance. It describes pretty well the problems with the perspective of the whole group around Z, Jugoremedija etc. even if it was not written by anarchists. In fact we printed the leaflet with that text, years ago, and distributed it at one of the Grubacic events, we changed "revolutionary communists", to "class anarchists" and few other points, but generally it was quite usable. We even left Marx and Engels there =;)

Salud y Anarquia

menko
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Jul 17 2007 03:39


Although without jobs for two years, the workers of «Jugoremedija» refused to quit. Their militancy and creative direct actions made them a symbol of resistance to neoliberal capitalism in Serbia.

The Recuperated Factory Movement Spreads to Eastern Europe: Jugoremedija Pharmaceutical Factory Workers Face Eviction

Serbian pharmaceutical factory «Jugoremedija», from the town of Zrenjanin, was privatized in 2000, in such a way that 58% of the shares were given to the workers, and the state took 42%. In 2002, the state sold it’s shares to Jovica Stefanovic, an infamous local capitalist, who made his fortune smuggling cigarettes, and who was wanted by Interpol at the time he bought the shares of «Jugoremedija». As all the other buyers in Serbian privatization, Stefanovic was not even investigated in money laundering, because the Serbian Government’s position at that time was, and still is, that it’s better to have dirty money in privatization, than to let workers manage the company, because that will “bring us back to the dark days of self-management”.

Allow us to give you a little context.

The first attack on Yugoslav self-management happened before the break up of socialist Yugoslavia. The first organized attempt to dismantle the system of self-management in Serbia dates back to the times of Slobodan Milosevic. But the real full-blown process of privatization and curtailment of workers rights happen after Milosevic was sent to the Hague Tribunal. In this context in transitional Serbia of the 21st century, with the transition to capitalism and parliamentary democracy, everything became allowed in the fight against what the new neoliberal government saw as the “ideological monster of self management” – even if it means the government and the court break laws.

Breaking all the rules, the state allowed the new co-owner of Jugoremedija, Stefanovic to become the dominant owner of the factory. Through various illegal maneuvers the ownership structure was changed: Stefanovic was given 68% of the shares and the workers portion was reduced to 32%.

In December 2003 the workers began a strike, and factory occupation, as well as a lawsuit against the recapitalization. This was the first work place occupation in the post socialist Yugoslavia!

In May 2004 the state, pressed by the workers, investigated privatization of «Jugoremedija» found that Stefanovic’s investment was in violation of the contract.

The state did nothing to enforce the violation of the contract. In response the workers, mainly women, came to the capital, Belgrade, and occupied the state’s Privatization Agency for one whole day. Only after this occupation did the state begin to take the violation seriously. Meanwhile the factory occupation continued.

During summer of 2004, Stefanovic’s private army tried several times to take over the factory, but the workers, with breathtaking courage, kicked them out. Sometimes using their bodies to block the military vehicles. This kept the boss out. … but he returned …

In September 2004, the private army was joined by the Serbian police, who had the order to evict the workers from «Jugoremedija». Police and the private army forced their way into the factory, resulting in the hospitalization of many workers and the arrest of four of the leaders of the strike. The workers were then charged with disturbing the peace. Criminal proceedings are still taking place. Now that he physically emptied the factory he illegally fired the two hundred workers.

After participating in a Peoples Global Action conference in Belgrade, in August of 2004, workers from «Jugoremedija» joined with workers from other factories to form the Union of Workers and Shareholders of Serbia. At first the Union’s mission was limited to fighting against corruption in privatization, but after experiencing different aspects of Serbian privatization, the Union came out with another demand – the call for a constituent assembly. They believe that the people should make the decisions that effect their lives and work places, and a new constitution can help make this happen. Graffiti appeared on the walls of Belgrade asking, “ Who owns our factories?”

Although without jobs for two years, the workers of «Jugoremedija» refused to quit. Their militancy and creative direct actions made them a symbol of resistance to neoliberal capitalism in Serbia.

Finally, as a response to a series of direct and legal actions, in May 2006 the Serbian Supreme Court reached the decision that recapitalization was in violation of the contract, and ordered Zrenjanin Economic Court to re-open the case. Last Friday, Zrenjanin Economic Court brought ownership structure back to 58%-42%.

According to Serbian law, workers-shareholders need three weeks to call for an assembly of all shareholders, in order to appoint their management. Stefanovic needs to be prevented from dividing up the company, and a court injunction would allow the workers to democratically decide who manages their factory, and how.

http://lnn.laborstart.org/more.php?id=756_0_1_0_M

Smash Rich Bastards
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Jul 17 2007 21:19
Joseph K. wrote:

Seriously, you could put out a 'Lost Dog' poster in your neighborhood and probably get Chomsky to sign on.

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Joseph Kay
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Jul 17 2007 21:28

i think chomsky probably died several years ago, and his continuing output is the work of a committee of Zmag types trying to inspire the wider movement, like a kind of anarcho-syndicalist mash-up of Tupac Shakur and El Cid.

ftony
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Jul 17 2007 23:04
Quote:
postmodernist, etc.

Graeber really seems to hate foucault. i know foucault is poststructuralist, not postmodernist, but i presume you use the two as interchangeable...

if he hates foucault (easily one of the more politically sound poststructuralists), then the proper wanky pomos have no chance.

QED smile

ftony
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Jul 17 2007 23:08

Catch 22 - i would, however, agree that his advocation of nonviolence as revolutionary practice is fundamentally flawed.

Flint
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Jul 18 2007 14:14
Catch 22 wrote:
MJ wrote:
What I really don't get is why Graeber and Grubacic are both now so interested in (and in??) the IWW just three years after writing that stupid sectarian piece talking about the "generation gap" and saying those in the IWW, NEFAC and the IWA "still have not shaken the sectarian habits of the last century." (Very, very few NEFACers can be described as "those whose political formation took place in the 60s and 70s" by the way!) This just doesn't seem like a relationship they and the IWW are likely to benefit from equally...

Graeber talks highly of the heady days of syndicalism at the turn of the century. So it doesn't surprise me that much that he's gotten involved with the IWW as much as he has. Still his politics are pretty flawed. Non violent to the extreme, postmodernist, etc.

He's speaking tonight at Red Emmas in Baltimore. Anybody want me to ask him anything? Otherwise, I'll probably just chat about anthropology and the Iroquois.

ftony
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Jul 18 2007 14:53

grin don't even go there sister! hand

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MJ
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Jul 18 2007 14:58

Flint, ask him why the about-face on the IWW.

Smash Rich Bastards
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Jul 18 2007 15:42
Flint wrote:
Catch 22 wrote:
MJ wrote:
What I really don't get is why Graeber and Grubacic are both now so interested in (and in??) the IWW just three years after writing that stupid sectarian piece talking about the "generation gap" and saying those in the IWW, NEFAC and the IWA "still have not shaken the sectarian habits of the last century." (Very, very few NEFACers can be described as "those whose political formation took place in the 60s and 70s" by the way!) This just doesn't seem like a relationship they and the IWW are likely to benefit from equally...

Graeber talks highly of the heady days of syndicalism at the turn of the century. So it doesn't surprise me that much that he's gotten involved with the IWW as much as he has. Still his politics are pretty flawed. Non violent to the extreme, postmodernist, etc.

He's speaking tonight at Red Emmas in Baltimore. Anybody want me to ask him anything? Otherwise, I'll probably just chat about anthropology and the Iroquois.

Ask him if his esteemed colleague's "amateur gynecologist" cards ever actually landed him any dates with activist girls. grin

Catch 22
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Jul 18 2007 22:25
ftony wrote:
Quote:
postmodernist, etc.

Graeber really seems to hate foucault. i know foucault is poststructuralist, not postmodernist, but i presume you use the two as interchangeable...

if he hates foucault (easily one of the more politically sound poststructuralists), then the proper wanky pomos have no chance.

QED :)

He wrote a book called Fragments of an Anarchist Anthropology. Come on! That's so wanky pomo! His writings are heavily dependent upon the recycled post modernism of the anti-globalization movement.

Quote:
Modern anarchism is imbued with countless contradictions. While small-a anarchists are slowly incorporating ideas and practices learned from indigenous allies into their modes of organizing or alternative communities, the main trace in the written literature has been the emergence of a sect of Primitivists, a notoriously contentious crew who call for the complete abolition of industrial civilization, and, in some cases, even agriculture.(6.) Still, it is only a matter of time before this older, either/or logic begins to give way to something more resembling the practice of consensus-based groups.

That's so "I'm ok, you're ok" pomo activist trash.

And how does he seem to hate Foucault? One passage from one essay talking about french professors founding marxist schools?

ftony
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Jul 19 2007 09:17

none of that means he's pomo. it just means he's liberal.

the book was called fragments of an anarchist anthropology because there was no real anarchist anthropology out there and he was clutching at bits and bobs that could be reworked into an anarchist anthropology.

he also criticises foucault when he talks about how F sees state power as shifting from a discourse of external violence to a discourse of internalised control. and then he goes on to argue against it.

Antieverything
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Jul 20 2007 18:23

I've finally found the holy grail of internet flame-wars. I am truly in awe!

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