Yet Another Newbie - Hi

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leewood1987
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Jun 17 2005 15:47
Yet Another Newbie - Hi

Hey,

New to this forum so...hopefully I'll fit in alright. My name's Lee, I came to this site to find some people who would think along the same lines as me - rather than those who are 'programmed' to think that whoever is against the government 'is dangerous'.

I'll start off with a bang, here is an article I written a few days ago - http://freedomorsecurity.tk

Feel free to comment on it.

Thanks,

Lee

Mike Harman
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Jun 17 2005 16:51

Welcome to the board Lee. I'll try to take a look at that article later on.

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pingtiao
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Jun 17 2005 16:56

Lee- looking through your article now.

Please, PLEASE get rid of the music!

eek

Welcome to the boards!

leewood1987
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Jun 17 2005 17:02

Got rid of it smile

Lee.

redyred
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Jun 17 2005 18:52

Why what was it? (the music that is)

Lee - just read the article. I don't agree with 100% of it, but yeah, some good points about security and freedom. I'd recommend you look into some theoretical work to basically bring all the threads together e.g. looking at why we live in a society like this and what the state's agenda is in bringing in these laws.

If you haven't already, take a look at libcom.org's own introductory overview:

http://www.libcom.org/thought/ideas/introduction/index.php

which is as good a starting point as any. There's also plenty of reading material in the "thought" and "library" sections, plus you can always ask questions on these forums for people's views on particular issues or where you can find out more info.

Welcome to libcom!

lucy82
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Jun 17 2005 22:00

My daughter thought it was the ringtone on my mobile eek

please don't ever do that again smile

hi lee, i share your concern about the way government is attacking civil liberties and the way in which this is cloaked by appealing to public concern about terrorism and the way in which specific groups of people are being demonised to achieve this.

when you say we had a successful leadership in the past because of the power people have had from freedom of speech, and the birthright to have your own individual say, and that people should take back the power they have 'lent', are you saying that we can take back power by influencing the leadership to act in our interests?

the problem is that individual politicians might appear to be acting in our interests and sometimes political parties might seem to be but they are not acting in the interests of working class people however much it might look like it. the real power lies with a global economic system which depends on ripping off the value of people's work for the profit and power of some people and the exploitation and lack of power of many people. it means that in reality, no amount of petitioning them to act in our interests will ever work (except in the short term as a panacea) and many people (including myself) see voting as participating in a sham democracy. there are other ways of practising democracy (direct democracy), its worth a look.

god, i've come over all political embarrassed

leewood1987
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Jun 17 2005 22:14

With each new law that comes into play - I just hate the government more & more...

lucy82
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Jun 17 2005 22:22

me too

Falseflag
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Jun 17 2005 22:29
Quote:
but still, innocent people in areas of war-torn countries are losing their lives. They are losing their lives pointlessly – and all in the name of democratic freedom

Who precisely are these innocent people losing their lives pointlessly?

[img]We in the United Kingdom live in a democracy, this is where the mass majority of the population elects a representative for them to protect their rights, and protect their individual freedoms[/img]

Is this irony or for real?

Quote:
However today the government & authorities are making us scared of these groups of people, which in its’ own right is social discrimination towards the Chavs/Yobs

So is a chav the same thing as a yob?

You mention only chavs not yobs were the "scape-goats".

What's wrong with calling a yob who acts like an anti-social yob- a yob?

Quote:
it is we – the people who ‘lent them’ the power, who decides how

to live our lives

As noted above this is asburd-

When did this lending happen? Who asked what? Was there a ceremony?

The first parasites were probably older males or people pretending to be rainmen> defenders of the people from evil spirits/other tribes> representatives of god (aka priests)> helpers of the representatives> finally people to organise the gifts for these representatives (aka-kings + their mercenaries) --defended by mercenaries out to plunder everyone else.

WeTheYouth
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Jun 17 2005 22:37
Quote:
Who precisely are these innocent people losing their lives pointlessly?

The people of Bosnia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Sierra Leone, Zimbabwe, Nepal, Haiti etc etc.

Innocent people lose there lives everyday because of global capitalism.

Quote:
We in the United Kingdom live in a democracy, this is where the mass majority of the population elects a representative for them to protect their rights, and protect their individual freedoms

Are you sure about that?

Quote:
So is a chav the same thing as a yob?

You mention only chavs not yobs were the "scape-goats".

What's wrong with calling a yob who acts like an anti-social yob- a yob?

Why attack a problem on the surface, why not look at the problems of material deprivation which cause the working class to organise in gangs?

Falseflag
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Jun 17 2005 22:42

Afghanistan, Iraq, Nepal, Haiti I can understand-

but Bosnia and Zimbabwe?

Quote:
Innocent people lose there lives everyday because of global capitalism.

Yeah but the article is talking about wars

Quote:
Why attack a problem on the surface, why not look at the problems of material deprivation which cause the working class to organise in gangs

Who said anything about gangs?

WeTheYouth
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Jun 17 2005 22:46
Quote:
Afghanistan, Iraq, Nepal, Haiti I can understand-

but Bosnia and Zimbabwe?

Have you missed the tv coverage on zimbabwe? Mass removal of slums by mugabe. And in Bosnia thousands of people were killed or dont you remember?

Quote:
Yeah but the article is talking about wars

Wars are cause by capitalism

Quote:
Who said anything about gangs?

"Yobs" dont act alone, anti social behaviour is a collective activity. Theres no point smashing up a phone box if no one is around to cheer you on and help you out.

leewood1987
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Jun 17 2005 23:37
Quote:
Why attack a problem on the surface, why not look at the problems of material deprivation which cause the working class to organise in gangs?

If you haven't noticed - the government only 'looks' at problems on the surface.

Dave Jones
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Jun 17 2005 23:49

Is it just me or does this thread seem like the Pied Piper/Cockneyrebel Revo hey kids come and join our gang?

Wanna see some puppies?

lucy82
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Jun 18 2005 19:07

no ern, its just you. why don't you piss off and play somewhere else?

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cantdocartwheels
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Jun 18 2005 20:50

hi lee welcome to the forums, i think i'd just have two questions really

1. How can you stop this erosion of civil liberties?

2. If you were able to stop certain things, what could you do to change political structures that allow politicians and the financial backers to mount similar campaigns against our realistically currently somewhat limited freedoms?

leewood1987
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Jun 18 2005 23:21
cantdocartwheels wrote:
1. How can you stop this erosion of civil liberties?

The only way we can stop this erosion is if we stand up for once! I'm frequently tired of people asking me similar questions (not on here), it's a common sense answer - if you want to stop the removal of our liberties, you must stand up to those who are erasing our freedoms day-by-day. I quote my article here when I say -

"We must make a stand now, to defend what rights we have left – or we will wake up to find we have none."

leewood1987
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Jun 18 2005 23:22
cantdocartwheels wrote:
2. If you were able to stop certain things, what could you do to change political structures that allow politicians and the financial backers to mount similar campaigns against our realistically currently somewhat limited freedoms?

Take them powers from them or make them amend the laws so they don't remove our freedoms, we put them in power by voting for them, so it is our say that they must listen to!

lucy82
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Jun 18 2005 23:34

do you think they will listen though? do you think voting them out and another lot in will help?

leewood1987
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Jun 18 2005 23:36

No...but it will make other people stand up. Come on, we can govern ourselves better than them apes at Parliament.

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cantdocartwheels
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Jun 19 2005 01:51
leewood1987 wrote:
cantdocartwheels wrote:
1. How can you stop this erosion of civil liberties?

The only way we can stop this erosion is if we stand up for once! I'm frequently tired of people asking me similar questions (not on here), it's a common sense answer - if you want to stop the removal of our liberties, you must stand up to those who are erasing our freedoms day-by-day. I quote my article here when I say -

"We must make a stand now, to defend what rights we have left – or we will wake up to find we have none."

I see what you mean, but how exactly do you propose we do this. Take three examples, the recent ID Cards, the criminal justice bill of the 90's and anti-union laws put in place in the early-mid 80's, seperate causes in some ways perhaps but all part of the general shift in british politics and erosion of civil liberties in the last few decades. How would you deal with each of those on a practical level?

Certainly an individual disobeying the law is useless on its own, i'm not really very fond of the idea of martyrdom, and i doubt anyone else is either so what could you do on a practical level to stop it? I mean i could wave a placard till the cows come home, and certainly protest has its place, but on its own it won't stop anything, so how could you make a law inneffectual?

Not saying i'm sure about exactly what to do in all these circumstances either, and i don't think anyone has a nice easy solution, otherwise we wouldn't still be talking about this now, but i think thats the one of key issues you have to adress. not what you want to change, but how you can change it.