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how can anarchy be achieved?

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nightowl
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Feb 9 2005 13:56
how can anarchy be achieved?

It seems that a lot of the anarchist movement at the moment is preaching to the converted. Meetings, groups and protests are generally attended by those already of that persuasion. Anarchist publications and websites are generally frequented by the same. So my question is, given that a movement must surely have some mass appeal to succeed, how is anarchy to be realised. It seems there are various possibilities:

1, Outright revolution.

2, Trade unions calling a general strike and bringing down the bosses.

3, A party working through the current democratic process with the agenda that it will change the structure of society once it receives a majority.

What do others think?

Vaneigemappreci...
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Feb 9 2005 17:17

fuck sake, i went to submit a really indepth if incoherent reply to this post and it only disappeared!

Can someone else whose brain is less burdened with the excesses of office work submit something about the complexities of class struggle and capitals dependency upon divisions within society and how we can undermine first these divisions and then capital as a whole. And dont forget to mention the reactionary nature of contemporary unions and parliamentary democracy!

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Steven.
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Feb 9 2005 17:44

You could flick through sections of this...

http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secJcon.html

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Feb 10 2005 00:18

Short answer -- anarchy will (and is) being achieved in a multitude of ways. It's not a situation you can acertain through looking at the nature of the state, it's a measurement of how powerful people are to control their own lives.

So everything that icreases people's own power is a step in the direction of anarchy.

Longer answer: maybe later.

And mate, not being snide, but you seem to have made your mind up already.

nightowl wrote:
Meetings, groups and protests are generally attended by those already of that persuasion. Anarchist publications and websites are generally frequented by the same.

How do you know that this is the case? Surely the same could be said about socialist events with the same degree of confidence? Maybe we just have different ideas of what count as 'anarchist events.'

Ceannairc
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Feb 10 2005 09:51

http://www.geocities.com/ensightingthoughts/festo_2.rtf

My anti-manifesto thing was my contribution. In brief...

We DO absolutely have to get the message to other people, in every area of society. Then we simply detach ourselves from the government by forming self-sustaining groups. Basicly, what you were saying about a general strike but not necessarily led by the unions. We simply boycott government.

phoebe
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Feb 10 2005 18:04

I personally think that a combination of creating free (liberating as well as cheap/cost-free) alternatives to things we need from capitalism where possible and taking what we need elsewhere X whole bunch of boycott capitalism - lifestylist stuff which doesn't have a direct coherent effect on liberation provides the equation.

Joe Hill
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Feb 11 2005 00:36

Is that not individuals personally opting out rather than removing capitalism as a blight from people's lives in general?

phoebe
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Feb 11 2005 12:03

My suggestion? Um. Not really if the individuals are working together to get out of capitalism and help other people out. I'm not really in favour of guerrilla splitoffs. A self-sustaining group of hippies on some island off of Scotland won't bring the revolution, but I think a large scale community self-liberation project building alternatives could have serious widespread results wrt bringing down capitalism. I personally think such a project is vital because (unless you're a primmo) we can't just concern ourselves with bringing down what we've got: we've got to build an infrastructure to sustain us afterwards and fill in the for some of the useful social functions that capitalism acted out originally. If we're going to destroy capitalism and authoritarian society we're going to have to build networks and responsibility amongst ourselves to be able to function without them. We have to work towards being a society that can live anarchistically.

Anarchoneilist
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Feb 12 2005 16:24

How can anarchy be achieved?

By organising viable alternatives to state and capital:

eg. Replacing Railtrack etc with a Train User's Syndicate,

organising patient's collectives to replace NHS and to disempower

doctors etc (some primitivist ideas may help as well here).

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cantdocartwheels
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Feb 12 2005 22:12
Anarchoneilist wrote:
How can anarchy be achieved?

By organising viable alternatives to state and capital:

eg. Replacing Railtrack etc with a Train User's Syndicate

organising patient's collectives to replace NHS and to disempower

doctors etc (some primitivist ideas may help as well here).

Oh what bollocks!, and why would you want to further disempower doctors and nurses for fucks sake?!

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Feb 13 2005 02:11

No, come on, can'tdo -- say your bit about how it can be achieved; oly those who've answered the thread's question should get stuck in.

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cantdocartwheels
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Feb 14 2005 03:10
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
No, come on, can'tdo -- say your bit about how it can be achieved; oly those who've answered the thread's question should get stuck in.

So why didn't you say that to him? Considering that in real terms he actually doesn't want to achieve anarcho-communism does he. I mean if you want to disempower doctors and nurses then you aren't in favour of workers control.

While community campaigns, users networks and the like are very neccessary obviously (especially at present while the left is still in retreat) and they can build resistance to the capitalist class and create proletarian structures, they are not a means of overthrowing capital itself, they do not highlight the exact basic class relationships. A high court judge and a call centre worker could take the same bus to work together and their concerns would be the same as 'bus users'. It is not in consumption but it is at the point of production that we are truly robbed and it is only there that we can overthrow capitalism as a social relationship rather than just combating a few elements of capitalism which are particularly unpleasant at the time.

When we create structures to resist capitalism and to form the embryo of a communist society we should aim to form those around the point of production even though these structures should endeavour to be involved in community and consumption based issues (eg housing), the priority is in the workplace.

phoebe
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Feb 14 2005 09:41
cantdocartwheels wrote:
When we create structures to resist capitalism and to form the embryo of a communist society we should aim to form those around the point of production even though these structures should endeavour to be involved in community and consumption based issues (eg housing), the priority is in the workplace.

agreed

Red Jezza
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Feb 18 2005 14:10
phoebe wrote:
I personally think that a combination of creating free (liberating as well as cheap/cost-free) alternatives to things we need from capitalism where possible and taking what we need elsewhere X whole bunch of boycott capitalism - lifestylist stuff which doesn't have a direct coherent effect on liberation provides the equation.

right, but revolution certainly cannot be achieved without a consciousness of (w/c) unity in a mass movement. not 'avin' a go - but the above is a completely atomising, individualist solution which does not provide for or build that unity.

phoebe
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Feb 18 2005 14:30
Red Jezza wrote:
phoebe wrote:
I personally think that a combination of creating free (liberating as well as cheap/cost-free) alternatives to things we need from capitalism where possible and taking what we need elsewhere X whole bunch of boycott capitalism - lifestylist stuff which doesn't have a direct coherent effect on liberation provides the equation.

right, but revolution certainly cannot be achieved without a consciousness of (w/c) unity in a mass movement. not 'avin' a go - but the above is a completely atomising, individualist solution which does not provide for or build that unity.

I dont' think it's atomising. I think it's recognising that there are microscopic issues to be dealt with if we're going to take on the macroscopic issue. I think that class consciousness is vital to the revolution too. I just also think that class consciousness is useless if we're not prepared to do things with it other than have a good old whinge with fellow workers about how much things suck and occasionally discuss how great it'd be to have a revolution. We need to be doing things now and not only things which are isolated assaults on capitalism (nicking things at work, screwing up profit margins, the occasional strike for slightly better conditions at work) but creating things which cut capitalism out of our lives. Making those things without class consciousness is doomed to failure because our achievements will be irrelevant outside of a tiny scope, but perpetually butting up against the powers that be is irrelevant because they have historically proven they can happily absorb those sorts of assaults. We need to break out of this "W/C vs Hippy" bullshit infighting and just do both.

Jason Cortez
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Feb 21 2005 21:19

Look here for short answer http://www.prole.info/index.html

Or alternatively send me all your money and i will make sure anarchy will be achieved or your money back.

BB
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Feb 22 2005 14:25
Jason Cortez wrote:
Look here for short answer http://www.prole.info/index.html

Cool site! 8)

ThisIsJustTheBe...
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Feb 22 2005 22:46

I've been wondering this myself mr poster man, and i guess i've achieved the answers i..didnt exactly want to hear. From what i can see 'anarchists' in modern society ain't gonna do nothing major. You know, like...hrm, bomb the houses of parliament...or say, follow any of the suffragettes actions in the 18th/19th century (aka, acid in mail boxes etc) Why? Well, from what i can see because most of them actually -need- the system to function. And although they preach the word of anarchy, they're too damned attached to this idea of a 'free-world' to actually go ahead put some action in and get there.

Nownow, don't flame me saying 'omfg, your such a liar, were doing so much!' Bullshit! Theres a damn site more every anarchist could do to totally disrupt this system we live in. Every person in this country opposes tax (except a minority) import tax...etc...yet no one stands up and does anything about it. If you help public meetings and Arranges functions then something could be done...but no, you sit here on the internet hour after hour arguing with people you have such a slim chance of meeting its laughable. Nono, don't go off the wall yet. I myself am a firm anarchist, even though im only 18. I've been in riots and crap and stood up for what i beleive in, but i am pissed off at idiots who claim to want to 'bring down the system' yet do JACK about it other than fucking 'marches and banners' - Hint! No one fucking pays attention to that crap, if they see a crowd of people waving banners and shit they just pass on by.

You want to start a revolution? or at least reform? Heres how.

For all you passive people, here are ACTUAL working mediums of propaganda:

Media -

Radio -You can or have the apparatus to access radio stations, theres plenty of radio stations which would quite happily have you on their shows if you can prove yourself worth the time.

Tv ads - it costs what...coulple of hundred maybe to actually get your ad on tv? No problem, if you idiots would donate to a fund you could go live and put your add onto tv no problem.

Paper - you realise papers are ALWAYS on the look out for scoops, if you had the right representative you could get an interview in a paper, or at the least a colum/add.

Cinema - Same as the Tv ads, cheap and effective.

For all you offensive-type anarchists out there (please note that i do not endorse this kind of action roll eyes *cough*)

Kidnapping - Govt officials, NATO was looking for drivers recently, get an anarchist in there and you've got yourself an officially elected person in your hands.

Riots - Well, gee...this is easy to start

Attacks on buildings - Well, again, obvious isn't it? Maybe a petrol bomb here, some arsen there. Take examples from the suffragettes book o'hell.

You see, there are a BILLION and one ways to make anarchism work, if you'd only get off your asses and stop proclaiming this shit and tha shit works, you'd see some -real- results and you'd get what you wanted.

Freedom.

Jason Cortez
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Feb 22 2005 22:57

You must join the newly reformed Symbionese Liberation Army. Your just the sort of person we are looking for.

Death to the fascist insects who prey on the life of the people! Long Live the Seven Headed Cobra!

Mike Harman
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Feb 22 2005 23:02

Jason, I think you should consider calling in sick to work tomorrow.

Mike Harman
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Feb 22 2005 23:04
Quote:
Tv ads - it costs what...coulple of hundred maybe to actually get your ad on tv? No problem, if you idiots would donate to a fund you could go live and put your add onto tv no problem.

Which country you in? Or do you mean printing some stickers and physically placing them onto a TV? I guess that'd be within yr budget.

lucy82
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Feb 22 2005 23:05

no after hearing Mr ThisIsJustTheBeginning man on the Scottish forum i think Jason should call in work sane.

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Refused
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Feb 22 2005 23:48

Ah, shite. There's another Anarch running around.

ThisIsJustTheBe...
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Feb 23 2005 00:02
Catch wrote:
Quote:
Tv ads - it costs what...coulple of hundred maybe to actually get your ad on tv? No problem, if you idiots would donate to a fund you could go live and put your add onto tv no problem.

Which country you in? Or do you mean printing some stickers and physically placing them onto a TV? I guess that'd be within yr budget.

Well...Duh, Scotland. And..no, just no. Putting stickers on tv's? come now, lets be sensible, here.

Also, who the heck are the ' newly reformed Symbionese Liberation Army. '

Vaneigemappreci...
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Feb 23 2005 10:40

Dude you cant put adverts on tv that are deemed to have a political content, so thats a non starter, anyway no one pays attention to adverts.

Also do you really think that nato would hire someone witha track record to ferry dignitories around town!?

As for the fire bombings youd simply get a ten year stretch, ass raped and ridiculed, looking like a twat. You could always chuck yourself infront of a horse but youd only get animal rights protesters having a go for endangering the horses life!

I agree with the basic premise though, that we dont do enough, i'll speak for myself. I'm in a shit job, its mind numbing, useless, exploitative, i do as i'm told, i go to work i go home and sleep and rather than venting my anger i just seeth or post on the internet, i may go to the odd demo, do a bit of graff, skive work, but this is nothing, its a passive outlet for all that discontent. Theres little chance that in the next few moments i'm gonna walk out of work (what would be the point? Theyll just hire another person) or more constructively throw my computer out the window, because i know that no one would see the initiative and support me, i'm paralysed by an implicit consent, by a conditioned conformity, we have become attached to just surviving, just getting along, earning enough to get food, see distractions and have a roof over our heads, just putting up with what were offered.

Jason Cortez
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Feb 23 2005 10:56

For more info on the newly reformed SLA Cilck here [url]http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cachegrin27ZRFTvbf4Jgrinebs.pinko.net/pipermail/socialistsunmoderated/2005-February/003399.html+symbionese+liberation+army+communique&hl=en[/url]

Death to the fascist insect who preys on the life of the people!

Anarchoneilist
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Feb 23 2005 12:19

Surely some of the "anti-hippie" (I'm sure you're all dying to

see what I look like/or couldn't give a toss) posters should

really be suggesting how Marxism/ communism can be achieved.

Not everyone wants to be a wage slave, they just want to live in a free society.

Vaneigemappreci...
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Feb 23 2005 13:12

Marxism was acheived through the academic study of marx thus turning his ideas into some sort of scientific ideology, how to acheive 'communism' is an altogether different matter, how about firstly overcoming those divisons in society that separate and divide different social, racial and age groups within capital, then organise in your workplace and community to undermine capital and all its fetters, converntions and rules, suggest ways in which the system can be inhibited, sabotaged, understand your enemy, play to your strengths, then strike, occupy your workplace, burn down what isnt useful for the furthering of the freedom of the people (bureaucracies, banks) and utilise and liberate all that is (factories, land), free your community from the restrainst of capital, restructure the landscape in whatever way you want, freeing it from the functional logic of capital, lynch all those who own the means of production/politicians/police chiefs, make a great spectacle of it, ticker tape, the lot, then dance! Dance for eternity, and they all live happily ever after.

BB
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Feb 23 2005 15:01
ThisIsJustTheBeginning wrote:

roll eyes

GO GO GO! This is!

Come on all you wanna be anarcho's, "this is" has got all the answers, why did no one THINK of any of these things b4! Hallelujah!

I like you, will you be my friend.

ThisIsJustTheBe...
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Feb 23 2005 15:17

O_o@Bomber

I'm not -trying- to start a revolution or nothin' ...well...maybe not right now, just merely proposing ideals that might actually shift things or -help- move Anarchy into the spotlight, no need to be sarcastic neutral

BB
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Feb 23 2005 16:36
ThisIsJustTheBeginning wrote:
but no, you sit here on the internet hour after hour arguing with people you have such a slim chance of meeting its laughable.

It beats working!