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Effective resistance

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marinebroadcast
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Sep 14 2005 16:57
Effective resistance

DSEi:

today was the no guidelines day, we were going to block the station leading to the exel centre. it didnt happen.

you lot are right.. total waste of time. didnt even slow it down. Wished i stayed in and read a book.

Fuck....I've put my time into three actions this summer : G8-sterling,Mass act and DSEi. There have more be more effective ways. So what the fuck are they then?

a group of us have been planning an art/polotics social centre,(a long term project, as form of industrial action. Something like Discord, an alternative option... away from the art market and its goons. Now I'm not so sure. What do people think on this type of thing. Will it turn out as ineffective as the protests? i would appreciate some advice and stuff as we've found a block to squatt. and am feeling pretty fucking shit right now.

The Porkadian
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Sep 14 2005 19:15

wish I had the answers for you, but i dont confused

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Ed
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Sep 14 2005 20:55

If you want my opinion (actually, whether you do or not, I'm gonna give it to you so you better just deal with it wink ) all these protests are a bunch of bollocks. And, if I'm being honest, I don't think much of social centes as they generally just end up as radical/alternative hangouts. Without a strong workers' movement for them to serve, I think these social centres will always turn out as subcultural hangouts. They can sometimes be quite nice (i.e. The Cowley Club) but subcultural and detached from the class all the same.

Effective action? Let me dust of my dogma again but IMO, its gonna have to get down to boring, everyday organising in your community and workplace.

You say there are a few of you setting up a squat? How about you try and set up a local community group instead? There's a community organising page on libcom (though its far from finished) and you could get in touch with some of the more well-established groups like Hackney Independent, Walthamstow Anarchist Group or Haringey Solidarity Group and I'm sure they'd give you some advice on getting started. There's also a Community Action email list but I don't know anything about it, maybe have a look at the thread on Organise here and ask someone relevant (Kalabine?).

As for workplace organising, well the libcom workplace organising page is sweet for that. Loads of tips. Also, the IWW are good for that sort of thing.

Finally though, and I reckon this is one of the most important things, don't feel like you have to be doing something. Inactivity is worse than counter-productive or useless activity. If you feel what you're doing is useless then you'll soon just get disillusioned and jack in the whole politics thing. Don't let activist shit take over your life; go see your mates at the pub and talk about the next person you want to shag or whatever. Life's too short to spend it half-way up a crane for no good reason! wink

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Lazy Riser
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Sep 14 2005 21:12

Hi

Quote:
Inactivity is worse than counter-productive or useless activity.

Are you sure?

Love

Chris

lucy82
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Sep 14 2005 22:03

i think if as a group of you have thought it over and you know about the time and commitment it takes to do a squat with the intention of it being socially useful then you should do it if you can.

maybe pm kidda? the squat they did in birmingham was really good. it was an old nursery and they kept it going for a long time resisting eviction and it was a real community resource. i think it was fuckin admirable and its possible to do this stuff but it took also a lot of real hard work with a lot of stuff to deal with. imo this is worth doing. it is working in the community and i don't see how the nursery squat was subcultural or detached from class either. it was supported by many people from the local community and provided a much needed resource.

as far as DSEi is concerned, i'm not sure what you thought would happen. everyone knows they are not going to stop an arms fair. or the G8. there aren't any easy victories. what would it/they be like if there were no mass protests? i know it feels useless (i feel like that myself) but if noone was there then the fact there is a challenge wouldn't exist.

maybe you just do what you can do when you can and squats are a way of being involved with people in your local community if you look around you at what support people need. imo its not reject one thing for another as Ed is suggesting, a good squat working with people around it for something they need is as effective as anything else in building support amongst working people in the local community.

marinebroadcast
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Sep 14 2005 22:45

Thanks for your advice:

I dont know what I really thought today would achieve, as even if we had some media coverage it would have been pretty counter productive- it was a fucking farce today really. I guess i really feel the urgent need to do something, kind of desperate really.

But the whole thing was just so flaky, and if at worst it now seems to me that actions like these do nothing but re-enforce the exisiting power structures. a bit like aid etc. Go along to your protest- feel good- go back to normal life.Oh its those crayzzzieee activists again.

Its not enough is it.

Is industrial action effective? Its not enough is it.

We live in the beginning of a post industrial age, so the nature of struggle must change.

i dont want to create another hang out for artists and activists, I want to open a new 'site' where education and creativity will produce sustanable alternatives. for everyone.

on a personal note my industry is fine art production, which is historically bound to the major changes in thinking in the modern/ post modern eras....so art and politics can go quite well toghter.. it doesnt happen much .... i belive art workers to be in a crisis period. and am hoping that forming a collective will be the start of something...however small. Anyway its not at all finalised yet, it'll probably take ages- i've been working on it since G8.

I will join an existing group though there are none in my area, will wait for the book fair though.

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Ed
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Sep 15 2005 00:01
Lazy Riser wrote:
Are you sure?

Yes. If you don't do anything, you're not doing anything bad. If you do something bad, you're doing something bad. Therefore, not doing something bad is better than doing something bad.

lucy82 wrote:
the squat they did in birmingham was really good. it was an old nursery and they kept it going for a long time resisting eviction and it was a real community resource.

I don't really know much about the squat in Birmingham but from what I heard about it (from people who went there), it wasn't quite the community resource you make out. That said, I don't know much about it and I don't want to piss over the hard work someone has done. The one key thing I would ask though is: when they were resisting eviction, who came out to stop it? Was it locals or was it activists bussed in from around the area? I'd also ask, how did it encourage libertarian communist tendencies within the class? IMO this is the only question that really matters when evaluating our work.

lucy82 wrote:
it is working in the community and i don't see how the nursery squat was subcultural or detached from class either. it was supported by many people from the local community and provided a much needed resource.

I see what you mean Lucy, but again I think you've gotta ask the question of how many locals came out to stop the eviction? I don't know the answer to this btw, so if loads came out then I'd be happy to accept the nursery as a progressive step in working class emancipation (which I'm sure will mean a lot to them grin ). But social centres aren't inherently community based just coz they're based in a geographic community. Sure, while they're there people might think they're quite nice, but when they're gone do they leave an organised community with a strong fighting spirit? I'm yet to see it. If anything, I've only ever seen radical politics further entrench itself within a subculture. But again, this is just my experience, I'm willing to accept that I've not seen every social centre in Britain. I should be seeing Gen Terror for a curry on Friday so I'll get him to tell me all about it.

lucy82 wrote:
i know it feels useless (i feel like that myself) but if noone was there then the fact there is a challenge wouldn't exist.

I disagree with this too (surprise, surprise smile ) but I've done this to death in other threads so I won't go off on one. My basic point on this is: Even though everyone was there, the fact is a challenge doesn't exist. D'you see what I've done there? I'm well clever wink

lucy82 wrote:
maybe you just do what you can do when you can and squats are a way of being involved with people in your local community if you look around you at what support people need.

Finally! We agree on something! This is a very crucial point: Do people need a squatted social centre round your way?

marinebroadcast wrote:
Is industrial action effective? Its not enough is it.

We live in the beginning of a post industrial age, so the nature of struggle must change.

I don't get what you mean by this, could you expand?

marinebroadcast wrote:
on a personal note my industry is fine art production, which is historically bound to the major changes in thinking in the modern/ post modern eras....so art and politics can go quite well toghter.. it doesnt happen much .... i belive art workers to be in a crisis period. and am hoping that forming a collective will be the start of something...however small. Anyway its not at all finalised yet, it'll probably take ages- i've been working on it since G8.

Can you expand on this too? It sounds interesting. What is fine art production? Do you mean you're an artist? Who are art workers? Why are they in crisis? What were you thinking you're collective would do? Sorry for all the questions, I'm a bit slow (had to do a basic literacy and numeracy test at a job interview today and I would've failed it if I hadn't copied the girl sitting next to me! embarrassed )

marinebroadcast wrote:
I will join an existing group though there are none in my area, will wait for the book fair though.

Whereabouts are you?

Mike Harman
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Sep 15 2005 00:03
Ed wrote:
Lazy Riser wrote:
Are you sure?

Yes. If you don't do anything, you're not doing anything bad. If you do something bad, you're doing something bad. Therefore, not doing something bad is better than doing something bad.

I know that's what you meant, but it's not what you posted.

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Ed
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Sep 15 2005 00:20
Catch wrote:
Ed wrote:
Lazy Riser wrote:
Are you sure?

Yes. If you don't do anything, you're not doing anything bad. If you do something bad, you're doing something bad. Therefore, not doing something bad is better than doing something bad.

I know that's what you meant, but it's not what you posted.

Oh my God, I can't believe it took Lazy Riser and Catch to post replies and then I even had to PM Catch before I understood what they were on about! embarrassed Yeah, the original sentence is supposed to read "inactivity is better than counter-productive or useless activity". Told you I was slow!

Anyway, leave me alone you bummers.

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Steven.
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Sep 15 2005 07:49

marinebroadcast - first thing to bear in mind: you can't change the world. You probably can't even make a tiny difference, except in the lives of the people around you.

You y'know have a try, but not with any illusions, and take it easy 8)

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JDMF
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Sep 15 2005 08:35
Ed wrote:
"inactivity is better than counter-productive or useless activity".

... and if you dont do anything, you can't be criticised? Another fancy quote: only those who do something make mistakes, meaning that mistakes happen and we all waste our time in useless shit (trust me, there are LOADS of useless shit and timewasting you can do in community and workplace organising as well, not just this so0 called "activisty" stuff) and only those who dont do anything can claim that they never made mistakes.

one more point, for the sake of discussion, lets just say that there are intentional and unintentional communities, and i think you can be productive in both. Intentional community is kind of like minded people getting together, be it an anarchist group, group of radicals within some locality or workplace, social centre, some "single" issue group from defy-ID to anti-fash group, from enviro to animal group - or even this message board - and you can further libertarian/anarchist politics in all of these. Unintentional community is where you live, where you work/study, and you have to play with the cards you are dealth with (as in you can't choose your workmates or people you live with), obviously this is a different kind of arena.

Both are very important, latter more important in the long run in my opinion, but too often people throw out the former one because of disillusioment.

Mike Harman
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Sep 15 2005 09:00
JDMF wrote:
Ed wrote:
"inactivity is better than counter-productive or useless activity".

... and if you dont do anything, you can't be criticised? Another fancy quote: only those who do something make mistakes, meaning that mistakes happen and we all waste our time in useless shit (trust me, there are LOADS of useless shit and timewasting you can do in community and workplace organising as well, not just this so0 called "activisty" stuff) and only those who dont do anything can claim that they never made mistakes.

Except that marinebroadcast appears to have identified certain kinds of activity as useless, both on a personal and wider level. Is it necessary for every single person to reinvent the wheel with political activity, going through an apprenticeship of "useless shit" for years and years until they find something productive? Not to mention all the people who know perfectly well that what they do is useless, or even counter-productive, but do it anyway out of habit or a sense of duty. That's not something to be encouraged.

Quote:

one more point, for the sake of discussion, lets just say that there are intentional and unintentional communities, and i think you can be productive in both....

Both are very important, latter more important in the long run in my opinion, but too often people throw out the former one because of disillusioment.

How many throw out the latter in favour of "intentional communities" (which is really a euphemism for subcultures, which everyone belongs to, not just politicos)? I'd say that's far more of a problem in terms of political activity. I'm sure plenty of people are far more worried about "making mistakes" in arenas which will impact on them, their family and friends, than they are within subcultures. You're far more likely to land up in shit at work for organising at work, than for going on a protest.

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JDMF
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Sep 15 2005 09:10
Catch wrote:
Is it necessary for every single person to reinvent the wheel with political activity, going through an apprenticeship of "useless shit" for years and years until they find something productive? Not to mention all the people who know perfectly well that what they do is useless, or even counter-productive, but do it anyway out of habit or a sense of duty. That's not something to be encouraged.

of course people should learn from others etc etc etc. What i was saying above was that the split is not as simple as activist stuff = useless, workplace and community organising = productive. It is far more mixed than that. I have sometimes wasted years for workplace organising with very little productive results (go on mate, now you can blame it all on me and not being a bright spark or something). And on the flip side sometimes activisty stuff can be very productive and get results.

Quote:

How many throw out the latter in favour of "intentional communities" (which is really a euphemism for subcultures, which everyone belongs to, not just politicos)? I'd say that's far more of a problem in terms of political activity.

in general this is true, but on this forum the reaction to this fact has been to go to the other extreme, or am i wrong in thinking so?

Mike Harman
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Sep 15 2005 10:34
JDMF wrote:
What i was saying above was that the split is not as simple as activist stuff = useless, workplace and community organising = productive. It is far more mixed than that. I have sometimes wasted years for workplace organising with very little productive results (go on mate, now you can blame it all on me and not being a bright spark or something).

No I'd be interested to hear about the workplace organising - what went wrong, stuff that could've gone well but didn't for whatever reason. I'm just dipping my toe into workplace organising at the moment, and it's difficult to know where to start (especially when all new staff are on probation for nearly a year and I'm one of them, although I just found out that contradicts Unison's agreement with 6th form colleges, hehe), so hearing how things can go wrong (or just not get off the ground) would be handy, probably more useful than things that have gone well.

Quote:

in general this is true, but on this forum the reaction to this fact has been to go to the other extreme, or am i wrong in thinking so?

I think that's correct, but part of the reason for the flip in the other direction is the prevalence of people remaining in "intentional communities" to ignore what's happening around them in daily life. I can see why people are keen to distance themselves from the subcultural activities they've been involved with when they've realised how much of it was wasting their time. And if they aren't much use, then there's no harm in ignoring them completely - same as there's no harm in ignoring stamp collecting. "ignoring" often translates into "bitching" on here, tbh I'd be happier if we were all discussing things we actually wanted to do, rather than slagging off minority pursuits of little interest, but I'm as guilty as anyone.

The thing with workplace/community organising - is that organising but not getting results in terms of actual "successes" doesn't necessarily make the activity not worthwhile. You can learn from that process and use it the next time - and some activity has an inherent value in being socially useful even if it's not productive long term (like running film shows for kids) - which I can't see for most activisty stuff. You can also learn a lot about your own community and workplace from the process. Less politicised people involved may be disappointed at a defeat, but at least the possibility of success is there while it's being worked towards. Depends what you're talking about though.

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Sep 15 2005 11:45
Ed wrote:
I'd also ask, how did it encourage libertarian communist tendencies within the class? IMO this is the only question that really matters when evaluating our work.

Go on: fuck off and join the ICC angry

A lot of community and workplace organising does definitely not encourage lib-com tendencies, for example if a benefit is won through union bargaining or council pressure. Are these methods then totally useless? Likewise many actions may incourage lib-com tendencies, but within a defined group, rather than a class.

Frankly, I think you're oversimplifying things, and giving the impression that there's a world of useful activity out there, that can be found through clicking on the right libcom.org links Mr. T

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Sep 15 2005 11:51
Catch wrote:
The thing with workplace/community organising - is that organising but not getting results in terms of actual "successes" doesn't necessarily make the activity not worthwhile. You can learn from that process and use it the next time - and some activity has an inherent value in being socially useful even if it's not productive long term (like running film shows for kids) - which I can't see for most activisty stuff. You can also learn a lot about your own community and workplace from the process. Less politicised people involved may be disappointed at a defeat, but at least the possibility of success is there while it's being worked towards. Depends what you're talking about though.

Wow, you got all of that from one toe? Must have been your big one, right?

IMO many people on this site spend a lot of time 'distancing' themself from their old sub-cultural activities through making extensive mea culpas and through pouring vitriol on anyone who does anything like what they used to do -- a kind of washing away of sins.

Likewise, there's a glorification of anything that seems uncontaminated by this subcultural activism -- even though community/workplace organising can prove to be just as much of a disempowring catastrophe as anything that activists do, and even though thee's not much of a hard line between the two. The reason for the gropwth of sub-cult activism in the 1990s was because of the massive defeats of the 1980-90s, and many people, from all backgrounds, sought to find new arenas of struggle. maybe now we're more able to venture back into these fields, but let's not pretend that all we need is a bit more activist energy there and we'll be away.

Mike Harman
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Sep 15 2005 12:07
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:

Wow, you got all of that from one toe? Must have been your big one, right?

My toe is in workplace organising, the comments applied to workplace and community organising, which I've much more experience of, although only for about a year. I'm happy to admit my lack of long-term experience, and have done regularly here and elsewhere. That's why constructive discussions on topics like this are helpful - since at my tender age I've a good chance of not wasting years/decades of my life on something pointless, and hopefully that'll be the same for some other people.

I might well have got sucked into something like Dissent 3 years ago, or much more likely remained politically inactive for the forseeable future because although I never identified much with that kind of activity, I'd not seen much alternatives about.

Quote:

The reason for the gropwth of sub-cult activism in the 1990s was because of the massive defeats of the 1980-90s, and many people, from all backgrounds, sought to find new arenas of struggle.

In other words a response to massive defeats, understandable, but not positive.

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Sep 15 2005 12:53
Catch wrote:
In other words a response to massive defeats, understandable, but not positive.

Well, lets try to arrive at a historical understanding of why things happened like this, rather than passing judgement on people for not doing different. Sub-cultural groups tend to be very strong due to their dense set of connections, including on the plane of lifestyle, and that's why they can survive periods of extreme defeat.

In the event of another wave of ruling class gains, what would be a more healthy resonse?

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Sep 15 2005 13:27
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
Go on: fuck off and join the ICC angry

Laz, this is introductory thought: no flaming wink . I'm not against getting progressive reforms, whatever the means. All I'm saying is that stuff that encourages the libertarian communist tendencies within our class* is better than stuff that doesn't. Surely you would agree with that?

I suppose I should've added: how did it improve people's lives? Fair enough mate, but I think the original point about social centres still stands.

Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
Frankly, I think you're oversimplifying things, and giving the impression that there's a world of useful activity out there, that can be found through clicking on the right libcom.org links

Frankly, I think I'm 19 and I rejected activist bullshit two years ago. You're 34 and still organising to 'smash the G8' for fucks sake! confused grin

Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
In the event of another wave of ruling class gains, what would be a more healthy resonse?

This can't be a serious question. I don't believe for one second that you can't think of a better response to ruling class gains than disapearing into your own insignificant subcultural ghetto for the next 15-20 years.

* by this I don't mean 'turned them into libertarian communists', I mean encouraged the class consciousness, militancy, self-organisation etc.

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Steven.
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Sep 15 2005 13:30
Ed wrote:
You're 34

eek eek

Fuck off... really??

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JDMF
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Sep 15 2005 13:36

suprised about that 34 too grin

Hey, false dichotomy: effective workplace and community organising vs. subculture ghetto. Its not that simple!

loads of good work can and will be done in these "intentional communities", loads of utter shite can be done in the name of workplace and community organising - that should not be a suprise?

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Sep 15 2005 14:07
JDMF wrote:
loads of good work can and will be done in these "intentional communities", loads of utter shite can be done in the name of workplace and community organising - that should not be a suprise?

Fair enough, but is there good work going into "intentional communities" as well as "unintentional" ones or is a disproportionate amount going into "intentional" ones? More specifically, is a lot of good work going into a wide range of "intentional communities" or is it just going into one particular type of "intentional community"?

Last question: if there is a lot of good work going into "intentional communities" but almost none going into "unintentional" ones, do you think that it might make the good "intentional" work absolutely fucking shite because it only reinforces activist subcultural ghettos rather than act as an interesting and important supplement to a wider, less culturally defined, social movement?

Mike Harman
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Sep 15 2005 14:23
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:

In the event of another wave of ruling class gains, what would be a more healthy resonse?

In the event of? There's quite a lot going on now - pensions crisis, tax credit "overpayments", city academies, tightening of sick pay in Tesco and elsewhere.

I don't see any working class gains being made at the moment, apart from in isolated cases, so the healthiest thing we can do is try to build up links between people around us - links that have been broken down consistently since the '70s as a result of many of the defeats. That means local newsletters and sites like this to maintain decent sources of information - not that anything out there is perfect by any means, defending what community services remain, and resisting further attacks where possible. In other words a rearguard action. Retreating further into a subculture would be akin to deserting, to carry the analogy further.

In terms of which attacks to resist right now, at my workplace I think it currently means getting the workforce unionised - pretty much a prerequisite to any form of resistance there, especially since the lecturing staff union is quite strong. They're tightening up sick-leave and stuff like that this year, but there's absolutely no way to co-ordinate a response at the moment. There's also about 10-15 different staff rooms, which means loads of staff never meet each other, ever, let alone discuss things.

I also think it's very important to deal with city academies, since it looks like that's pretty irreversible and hasn't met with much resistance at all. Not sure how that can be done best though.

Quote:

Well, lets try to arrive at a historical understanding of why things happened like this, rather than passing judgement on people for not doing different.

A lot of people involved in subcultural activity aren't people who retreated from other activity after defeats, they're young people who have only experienced that kind of political activity - Ed was one of them. Again, understandable if that's what you're met with, and I don't have a go at people as individuals who get involved with it (or not as much as some people), just the activity itself.

I think some older activists are worried about putting people who've become involved in this stuff since the mid-'90s off politics altogether if they criticise it - since RTS/EF! etc. did mark a massive rise in politicisation of young people, including myself, although I was geographically a long way away and mainly relied on schnews iirc.

I personally don't remember the miners' strike, although I was alive during it - the first radical political activity I can remember being aware of was Twyford Down and the Brightlingsea veal export protests. Maybe the poll tax riots, maybe. Ed has said on here before that he can't believe no-one told him honestly what to expect from summit protests, I think he's got a right to be pissed off at a "movement" which allows very young people to waste their time and risk imprisonment for a load of bollocks.

Worse, there's also opportunism by groups like the WP/SWP with Revo and Globalise Resistance - which fetishise and leech on this type of activity in order to recruit to the party whilst simultaneously stifling it. Also I think that kind of activity remains popular because "activist-ism" is a lot sexier than hand-delivering newsletters on council estates, or trying to get more comfortable chairs at workstations (my only gain won at work so far). I say activist-ism, because I'm aware that local/work stuff is activism before you pick me up on that.

nastyned
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Sep 15 2005 18:05
Catch wrote:
Ed said on here before that he can't believe no-one told him honestly what to expect from summit protests, I think he's got a right to be pissed off at a "movement" which allows very young people to waste their time and risk imprisonment for a load of bollocks.

How strange. And there was me thinking that a critique of this sort of thing was consistently developed and published in the pages of resistance.

Who did Ed try discussing stuff with? Is he in any anarchist group?

Mike Harman
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Sep 15 2005 19:29

I'm paraphrasing his posts on an earlier thread, he can speak for himself so I'll leave that one grin

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Sep 15 2005 21:07

Well I was going to write a reasoned answer to Ed and Catch, but let's face it, I agree with them far too much, so I think I'll save myself for the ICC...

...and to say

I AM NOT 34!!!!!!!11111!!!! angry angry twisted angry angry

BASTARDS!!!!

marinebroadcast
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Sep 16 2005 01:33

Wow.. i've only been off the comp for a day....

in reference to your quieries

by post-industrial i mean that the nature of industry and capital is changing. I m not denying the exisitence of indusrty in its old forms, but globalistaion has made struggle in the work place more complex. With things like moveable work forces etc Plus power/capital seems to be less solid and more to do with culture and information and who controls and has access to what.

By art worker i mean i make art. the art industry is a bit of a joke, i'm sure your aware. It has always been the domain of the rulling elite, and although has the apperance of opening up: with art education for all, it still is much the same if not worse. As there are no aesthetic norms to measure work by, the indusrty is run to the taste of the elites.( All funded care of banks, corps and the state).They totally control what is made and whose voices are heard. if you are not prepared to play the game, or make akward work etc you can forget ever showing your work. apart from the fact that that this situation is fucked it also leads to a homogenised aesthetic.Dry shit work. Artists are turned against each other and into scab agents of the powerful.

It is my hope that if artists were to collectivise and take control of production and distrobution, not only would things be a lot fairer and freer but this in turn would allow for fresh exciting work. This has happened a bit with music.

The squatt project aims at a start of this. But i dont want it to be a gallery. And not just art stuff- it must be socially useful. Not masterbation.

Unfortunatly the area we found the empty in is around comercial st. Very near Ramparts ( art squatt thing - went there once but not what i want to do). This is not where i live and will not be living in it as am in a housing association flat. So not only is it not my locality but there are projects already going round there ( Freedom, larc etc).

i dont want to be all arrogent- we re coming to save you east london- when i dont know the local problems - they ve got George gallowank for that.

Does this sound like a shit location? It could be handy for support and borrowing projectors.

marinebroadcast
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Sep 16 2005 01:33

shit sorry that was long

marinebroadcast
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Joined: 12-07-05
Sep 16 2005 02:05

The thing about the actions and stuff.

Are we actaully doing anaything/ anything at all apart from walking down some street.

When i was in Scotland with the onset of hyperthemia lighting the beakons and walking. what was i achieving, who wa i reaching was i even resisting at all- or reenforcing the problems bypartaking in a futile action.

anyway there needs to be a reassesment of this stuff within the activist movement, peoples hearts are in the right places. i met some very dedicated people that i have a lot of respect for.

lucy82
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Joined: 31-05-04
Sep 16 2005 06:08

in a way though, the meeting people is the point too. the feeling that you aren't on your own. sometimes demos and stuff can feel quite uplifting and gives you opportunities to talk with people, find out what they are doing and join in if you want to. i've got involved in various stuff that way.

but actually, why am i defending big protests? generally speaking i'm as fed up with them as the next person. they often feel pointless and rather dull and sort of depressing. i remember after the massive feb stw demo in london being on the coach back to manchester and thinking well that was a bit of a buzz but the worlds still here, nothings changed cause we've been allowed to have our shout and feeling quite down when everyone else was gibbering with joy.

Ed's picture
Ed
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Joined: 1-10-03
Sep 16 2005 10:22
nastyned wrote:
How strange. And there was me thinking that a critique of this sort of thing was consistently developed and published in the pages of resistance.

What, like here:

resistance #48 - April 2003 wrote:
CLAAAC!

Recently, the Anarchist Federation gave its support to the “Convergence of Anti-Authoritarian and Anti-capitalist Struggles” ( CLAAAC), the French-Italian based network which has been set up to counter the G8 at Evian. They write: “We believe that between human beings, there should exist relationships other than that of the market, of domination, alienation and exploitation. Pollution, the waste of natural resources and differences in wealth are ever more catastrophic...”

Read the full statement online at www.claaacg8.org contact us for a copy.

Not having a go, and I know that there were articles where the AF argued for community and workplace organising (in that same issue in fact), but there was never the clear break with activist politics that (I reckon, anyway) is necessary. Possibly because it was thought the AF could recruit off the back of it?

Again, not having a go, no group's perfect but for you to come in and act as if the AF has always stood against activist wank and in defence of good proletarian organising is just ridiculous.

Quote:
Who did Ed try discussing stuff with? Is he in any anarchist group?

First of all, you can address me. This might be the internet but you don't need to speak to me through Big Papa Catch! wink

Secondly, I was in the AYN, from the beginning, through all the shitty activism, until it died a spectacularly embarrassing death akin only to having a heart attack while fucking a chicken. I discussed stuff with my mates (both in and out of the AYN).

I don't understand your interest though. Do you think that if I'd joined the AF when I was 16 then you lot would've got all that activist shite out of me quicker? Coz Tommy Ascaso joined the AF when he was 17 (and I was 16) and his political development has been pretty similar (if not exactly the same) to mine. Come on mate, you lot aren't exactly Socialisme ou Barbarie! I mean, the June issue of resistance has a massive article on the front page about the G8 and there's half a sentence talking about how grassroots organising is what we should be doing and the rest is all encouragement to either go to Gleneagles or hold local anti-G8 protests!

For fucks sake! You guys are much better than that so why did it go in?