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UK - Election: Vote Corbyn

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Serge Forward's picture
Serge Forward
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Oct 25 2016 21:16

Well, that's us told. Maybe I'll go and find a Momentum forum and tell them they're all wrong. Or maybe I'll just see what's on telly instead.

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Rob Ray
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Oct 25 2016 22:24

You seem to be under a misapprehension that anyone on these boards thinks a "revolution" in the teenage rebel sense is likely and/or desirable?

I realise it must be quite hard, coming at it from fantasy Corbyn-island where most of your critics are to your right, to imagine that people on your left might not see your sub-Bevanite schtick as particularly impressive while also not being a Daily Mail pastiche of the screeching ideologue, but you do yourself no favours by coming on boards with (clearly) fuck all understanding of the creed you're trying to debate against with the big patronising I Am.

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Oct 25 2016 22:36

Ok, so before I carry on I'm going to ask that you stop replying with 'what's your alternative? revolution?' and 'can single mothers eat Bakunin?'. I haven't once mentioned revolution or Bakunin (and I don't think anyone else has either) and it's just plain disrespectful to expect me to write lengthy replies only for you to discount them out of hand based on your own prejudices about things I haven't said. I write this now assuming you'll knock that on the head and engage with what is actually said rather than what's easier to answer..

wishface wrote:
You can spend your time building organisations and doing all those things. Voting takes ten minutes of your time so really there is no logistical problem.

Ok but as we already covered, I live in a Labour safe seat and, I'd hazard to guess, so do most far-left revolutionary types.. just look at the local groups of most anarchist/socialist organisations: they're mostly based around big urban centres i.e. where the Labour vote is strong.

If you want to make a difference to Corbyn's electoral chances, it's not enough that the relatively few revolutionaries living in Labour strongholds vote Labour; it means campaigning where Labour are weak. That's more than just ten minutes: that's hundreds, maybe thousands, of activist hours being bussed out to fucking Wealden or wherever, knocking on doors, talking to people. Hours which could be spent campaigning to defend social housing, against pay cuts etc rather than trying to get politicians elected in four years time (hoping not just that they'll stick to their promises but reverse all the shit we've put up with in the meantime)..

wishface wrote:
However fighting those councils isn't really working. There have been a few victories - the Focus E15 mums for instance, and I commend and support those entirely.

wishface wrote:
I fully support the efforts of those undertaking such actions. DPAC for example are nothing short of heroes. But they are alone and not enough. That's the tragedy and the reality of it all.

So, yeah, I know we're mostly losing. But that's precisely because people aren't active. You can't look at general inactivity and conclude that taking action doesn't work. And while Corbyn may have rejuvenated some CLPs you'll have to admit that many thought they could change the direction of UK politics by paying £3 and voting him as Labour leader.

Compare that to the situation in the 1970s where one in six workers was a union rep; criticisms of unions aside, that's an entirely different form of politics (and one we've largely lost, some industries don't even have one in six in a union!). It involves active participation, a willingness to disrupt institutions (their workplace, letting agents or whatever) and an ability to take the shit that comes with it from bosses, landlords, the law etc.

So the decision really is between trying to build a movement that fights now or one that tries to get someone elected in four years in the hope they really do improve our lives. It very much isn't about some distant revolution.

wishface wrote:
Our situation is different so there isn't the likelihood of Corbyn being humbled by the troika as Sypras (sp?) was. We are a sovereign currency.

So, people like to say this but I honestly don't get why this is true for the following reasons:

1) Pressures within the Labour Party: fact is, Corbyn could literally stop cuts in loads of Labour councils and really take the fight to the Tories tomorrow just by telling his MPs, councilors etc to break cuts budgets. But he's done the opposite. Now he's obv trying to hold his party together (same way we're bombing Syrians coz he wanted to keep his party together). That will still be the case even if he's elected PM; there'll still be a Labour right, unless there are mass deselections they'll still be a majority of the PLP and they'll still be politicking and undermining him/the Labour left. For Jeremy to win, at a minimum, voters in Southwark will have to vote for the arseholes destroying the borough's social housing, which means they'll still be in the PLP of a Corbyn govt, threatening to ignore the whip, leaving Cabinet, publicly criticising etc. That pressure to hold the party together will always be there.

2) Pressures on the UK economy: Brexit has sent the pound ('our sovereign currency') crashing, we're expecting price rises on imports and banks are threatening to leave, all because the government has moved against the wishes of international (specifically European) capital. The government wanted businesses to provide lists of foreign workers; the CBI kicked up a fuss and got it scrapped. Now imagine instead of a right-wing racist capitalist govt, it was Corbyn's lefty govt. The non-cooperation and active sabotage from capital would be even stronger (with added pressure of having the entire media against him). Seriously, there's nothing about the UK that means our government can boss capital around..

The idea that Corbyn wouldn't end up like Tsipras (or Hollande, or the German and Irish Greens, or the Italian Communist Party of the 1970s etc etc) is a false hope. In all likelihood, that's exactly what would happen.

So you might say that building a militant social movement is a long way off and tbh you're completely right. But just coz we're nowhere near such a movement and staring disaster in the face, doesn't make your proposal any more likely..

ajjohnstone
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Oct 26 2016 00:14

New Scientist quotes him on Twitter saying
" I believe that homeo-meds works for some ppl and that it compliments 'convential' meds. they both come from organic matter..."

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28169-jeremy-corbyn-where-he-stan...

So does bear bile and tiger gonads "work" for some people.

I am a member of a small party with the only saving grace is that it has survived and stuck to its principles. However, it has survived for over a century, listening to all manner of well-intentioned folk defend the Labour Party and all the pressure and ginger groups which sprung up over all these decades, many now deceased and buried .. the ILP, the Socialist League ...

I have no wish to complain but if less people like your good self stopped offering apologies for the failure of decades of Labour Party and began the laborious task of education and persuasion rather than engaging in dead-end cul de sac lesser evil arguments we might actually be a bit closer to socialism that we were when my party actually was founded.

For anyone genuine and sincere in wishing to bring about a new and better world, supporting the Labour Party requires a pact with the devil. Where the forming of a government means being sucked into running the system. Over decades, millions of workers have invested their hopes in so-called ‘practical’, ‘possibilist’ organisations like the Labour Party, hoping against hope that they would be able to neuter the market economy when, in reality, the market economy has successfully neutered them. they turned out to be the real ‘impossibilists’ – demanding an unattainable humanised capitalism – is one of the greatest tragedies of the last century, made all the greater because it was so predictable.They held the idea that capitalism could be reformed into something kindly and user-friendly. It couldn't and it can't. Socialists make a choice. We choose to use our time and limited funds to work to eliminate the cause of the problems. One can pick any number of single problems and find that improvements have taken place, usually only after a very long period of agitation. But rarely, if ever, has the problem actually disappeared, and usually, other related problems have arisen to fill the vacuum left by the "solution".

If you insist upon the view that the struggle for reforms remains worthwhile then imagine just how many more palliatives and ameliorations will be offered and conceded by a besieged capitalist class in a desperate attempt to retain ownership rights if the working class were demanding the maximum programme of full dispossession and complete appropriation and nothing less. To stem the socialist tide the capitalist parties will sink their differences and draw closer together, much as religions do today in the face of the world avalanche of secularism. Reforms now derided as utopian will be two a penny - in an attempt to fob off the workers. Perhaps, for example, capitalism will provide a batch of free services, on the understanding that this is "the beginning" of a free society, but socialists will not be taken in. Perhaps the "libertarian right" and the "liberal left" will coalesce around a citizen's income

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Oct 26 2016 01:44

wishface--

So here's what you don't get about electoral politics--reforms that matter to our day to day lives don't just happen. Any and all meaningful reforms that actually do impact our lives positively were won in reaction to a strong working class movement. Without such a movement in play, believing that anything meaningful will happen through electoral politics is a particular kind magical thinking.

But here's the thing Very, very few things from the macro-political world have any impact on our daily lives. Most of the things that matter happen at our workplaces, where we live, in our neighborhoods, etc. Those things simply cannot/will not be solved through electoral politics.

It's like this--What Capital wants, capital will get without a militant working class fighting back. It doesn't matter who is in office. If a particularly principled politician were in office and had both the will and the political muscle to follow-through, and this politician refused to do what the ruling class wanted, they would find a way to remove them from office. The only way you'd be able to stop it would be through having people in the streets. So, even if what you think we really should be doing is supporting a particular politician, the best way to do that would be through working to build a radical movement.

But then the question is, if you have such a movement, why the hell would we settle for reforms? Why not just make the new world we want?

Quote:
Tell me your alternative. I've yet to hear it. I asked afed in Bristol how big they were. The number was about 20 (iirc). It was a dismally small number. All of these people (arsonists aside) I'm sure are decent honourable people, that's not my contention, but 20 people aren't going to change anything, so what do you propose?

So, if 20 communists are too small to 'change anything' exactly how do you think their votes are going to matter? You've completely undermined your own point.

Furthermore your aggressive posting style, making demands of other posters is unhelpful. Yesterday in the other thread, you made similar demands asking about Trotsky. When I took the time to explain it to you, you disappeared and started a new thread where you're making demands about something else. People have patiently answered your question, but you dismiss and ignore their answers.

For future reference, the search function is your friend. I guarantee any question you want to ask has already been asked and answered, probably a dozen times at least--The 'pragmatic electoral politics' vs the 'utopian communist' routine even more so, and every time this dichotomy is shown to be reversed.

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Oct 26 2016 06:26

wishface, I'm guessing that you're relatively young.
I'm going to sound patronising but try and stick with me. I can remember feeling like that, that horrible feeling that everything is going to shit and we have to do something. Still get it sometimes. The problem is that you end up pushed into dojng something pointless. You've already said as much, with regard to councils. If councils will do largely the same thing then why would governments be any different, remember that the ruling class doesn't change when the government does.

Everyone on here has heard these arguments before and has disagreed with them at length. Holding your nose and voting Labour has almost become a running joke.

You've come on here to argue in favour of it but you're not responding to people's arguments, you're just repeating your own. You are unlikely to persuade anyone of anything but if you want to do so then you need to debate rather than earnestly repeating the same things. We'e aware of what is hapening. I come from an area that is gentrifying out long-term residents, where aggressive and racist police act with impunity, where we have a Labour MP that tells us he can change things while angling for the next big chance for personal power and wealth. I don't think anyone is under any illusions about how severe the problems are, nor about the horrible effects that they are having on people. IT's emotive rhetoric, and the politicians use the same to try to get us care about whichever one of them wants our vote this time. The difference is that as communists, anarchists etc. we actually care, it's not just a selling tactic. People in general are sick of lying, interchangeable politicians so they try to whip up these existential battles to make us care. Abortion, Trump etc.
I care. A politician doesn't and won't. On the off chance that he she does then they won't be able to do anything about it.

A part of me wondered if I shouldn't have voted "against the Tories" because I was disgusted with the mixture of glee and arrogance they showed while destroying people and their lives. But Labour introduced internal markets to the NHS (preparing for privatisaton and swallowing up huge chunks of the 'extra' funding) Labour made academies, forced schools to become businesses, saddled them with expensive PFI contracts (much like the NHS) to profit private companies, shut down benefits offices, hired private contractors to take away invalidity benefits and so on and so on.
Now you might say that the Tories would have done that anyway, which is probably correct (some people think that Labour helped keep working class resistance down, I'm not so sure) but you can't argue that one side would be better while explaining away every example of them being equally bad on the grounds that whoever is in charge would have done it. Either governments make a difference or they don't.

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Oct 26 2016 06:44

Good posts Ed and jesuithitsquad.

Basically speaking, wishface is just trotting out that moth-eaten SWP slogan:

“Vote Labour – with no illusions”

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Oct 26 2016 08:07

I agree with Ed and jeff costello.

Where I live has been Labour since the borough boundaries were first drawn. Nothing I do in electoral terms will mean anything in the general election. Ed put it very well, the election gets decided in the marginal constituencies, which are not anarchist strongholds usually. If every single poster on Libcom voted Labour I seriously don't think it would swing a single seat. You're assuming that anarchists are all going to refuse to vote, but I did actually vote in the referendum, I got properly shouted at for it by some people but would go and do it again.

Your average anarchist has probably had the 'if you don't vote you're letting the tories win' argument before every election since the age of about seventeen from their neighbours, workmates, parents, aunts, and all the other Labour voters around you over and over and over again, it's one of the most common arguments you have. People will have made their minds up one way or another and don't need to have the argument again, there's more interesting things to argue about. If you want to influence the results of the general election, which I think is perfectly understandable given the terrible circumstances we are in, go out and argue with people who are thinking of voting conservative, seriously we are not the crucial constituency you should be spending time convincing.

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Oct 26 2016 08:05

I'd also like to say, don't accuse posters of not caring about what people are going through, a lot of posters do loads in the campaigns you mentioned like E15 and are fully aware of how bad things are, don't assume people are coming from an aloof position of not caring, whether they vote or not.

wishface
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Oct 26 2016 08:13
Serge Forward wrote:
Well, that's us told. Maybe I'll go and find a Momentum forum and tell them they're all wrong. Or maybe I'll just see what's on telly instead.

Really? That's the best you can manage?

I have repeatedly invited you or anyone else interested to provide an alternative, but instead you think a petulant snide jab is the answer?

Is that your idea of anarchism or left libertarian politics? To sneer at people trying to address real issues? If so you ought to consider a career in government or print media. They'd love you.

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Oct 26 2016 08:14

You don't know serge forward and you don't know what 'real issues' he might be involved with.

wishface
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Oct 26 2016 08:24
Rob Ray wrote:
You seem to be under a misapprehension that anyone on these boards thinks a "revolution" in the teenage rebel sense is likely and/or desirable?

I realise it must be quite hard, coming at it from fantasy Corbyn-island where most of your critics are to your right, to imagine that people on your left might not see your sub-Bevanite schtick as particularly impressive while also not being a Daily Mail pastiche of the screeching ideologue, but you do yourself no favours by coming on boards with (clearly) fuck all understanding of the creed you're trying to debate against with the big patronising I Am.

I don't know what the 'teenage rebel sense' means, perhaps you could define that before accusing me of a misapprehension. You won't, of course. All I see here is people hiding behind cheap remarks, too afraid to actually engage with the issues. That's a nice luxury, but it's one our society can't afford; people are dying because of the Tories. Instead of addressing that reality you just want to play at being anarchist because it sounds cool. Tell me who's the teenage rebel again?

If you feel patronised by what I've said then perhaps you should look in the mirror instead of blame me. I've repeatedly conceded that I don't like the reality I'm putting forward and have, for the umpteenth time, invited alternatives in the discussion. But it seems you don't want to have a discussion you just want to engage in facile superficial politics while bandying about nonsense regarding a particular notion of rebellion I haven't put forward.

The reality is what we have to deal with. If you can't see how bad life is for millions under this government then frankly you have no business calling yourself an anarchist or a left libertarian. You're just an apologist and enabler for the likes of this government.

We've had six years of Tory misery with the very real possibility of another 5. During that time there hasn't been any uptake in revolutionary activity. There is no possibility of any alternative coming into play. AGAIN: I wish that were different, but wishes don't pay the bills. What has happened has been a hardening and a polarisation of attitudes. Our society is divided as never before. People don't care, they have become callous. This is exceptionally dangerous, but you don't' seem to grasp this point. It doesn't breed revolutionary activity or a desire to change things in any way you deem acceptable (whatever that is, since you don't articulate it). Instead it breeds indifference and malaise: people just sit in front of the TV where they are spoonfed hateful propaganda that reinforces that callousness and encourages the division we see.

This is one of the reasons why it is important to get the Tories out and the only realistic option to do so is in 2020. If that callousness persists then the suffering will increase and the will to effect real lasting change will diminish. It hasn't happened so far, it's not going to happen in 2020. By 2025 this society will be unrecognisable, we are already about to lose the NHS - the groundwork is there as the secretary of state is no longer duty bound to provide healthcare for all citizens (thanks to the health and social care act of 22012), and the welfare state will have gone completely.

Play your revolutionary politics at our peril, that's the game you are playing. The pieces are people's lives.

wishface
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Oct 26 2016 08:27
fingers malone wrote:
You don't know serge forward and you don't know what 'real issues' he might be involved with.

But we do know the issues that people in society are dealing with. These are people screaming for help, dying for help. Why don't you support the only thing, right now, that can ameliorate their suffering? Why do you persist with the false narrative that supporting a Corbyn vitory in 2020 (all things being equal) prevents long term revolutionary activity. I have repeatedly and explicitly made it clear that I am not proposing long term support for labour or the westminster system. But in lieu of an alternative none of you are providing this is the only chance to help people who are dying?

Are his circumstances any worse than the people faced with tory penury and destitution? People that have already died?

wishface
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Oct 26 2016 08:29
fingers malone wrote:
I'd also like to say, don't accuse posters of not caring about what people are going through, a lot of posters do loads in the campaigns you mentioned like E15 and are fully aware of how bad things are, don't assume people are coming from an aloof position of not caring, whether they vote or not.

You don't get to play that card. You don't get to tell me I'm making unfair accusations after I have repeatedly and consistently invited you to offer a better alternative.

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Oct 26 2016 08:30

Look, you don't know me or (I guess) any of the people you are arguing with and so please don't accuse people of being indifferent to that suffering.

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Oct 26 2016 08:33
wishface wrote:
fingers malone wrote:
You don't know serge forward and you don't know what 'real issues' he might be involved with.

Why don't you support the only thing, right now, that can ameliorate their suffering?

I already said, but I live in the middle of one of Labour's strongholds, my vote either way would be meaningless. For what it's worth, if I lived in a swing seat, I would vote Labour.

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Oct 26 2016 08:36
wishface wrote:
fingers malone wrote:
I'd also like to say, don't accuse posters of not caring about what people are going through, a lot of posters do loads in the campaigns you mentioned like E15 and are fully aware of how bad things are, don't assume people are coming from an aloof position of not caring, whether they vote or not.

You don't get to play that card. You don't get to tell me I'm making unfair accusations after I have repeatedly and consistently invited you to offer a better alternative.

Mate I'm not trying to play any cards. If you would like me to explain an alternative I will try to do so. I am also not having a go at you for trying to get Corbyn elected either.

wishface
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Oct 26 2016 08:43
fingers malone wrote:
I agree with Ed and jeff costello.

Where I live has been Labour since the borough boundaries were first drawn. Nothing I do in electoral terms will mean anything in the general election. Ed put it very well, the election gets decided in the marginal constituencies, which are not anarchist strongholds usually. If every single poster on Libcom voted Labour I seriously don't think it would swing a single seat. You're assuming that anarchists are all going to refuse to vote, but I did actually vote in the referendum, I got properly shouted at for it by some people but would go and do it again.

Your average anarchist has probably had the 'if you don't vote you're letting the tories win' argument before every election since the age of about seventeen from their neighbours, workmates, parents, aunts, and all the other Labour voters around you over and over and over again, it's one of the most common arguments you have. People will have made their minds up one way or another and don't need to have the argument again, there's more interesting things to argue about. If you want to influence the results of the general election, which I think is perfectly understandable given the terrible circumstances we are in, go out and argue with people who are thinking of voting conservative, seriously we are not the crucial constituency you should be spending time convincing.

Are you deliberately ignoring what I've said? Is this how we are going to proceed? Your first point was already addressed ages ago: i mentioned the safe seat issue in my first post. If that's the case where you are then obviously you can do nothing. What part of that wasn't clear? Why do I have to repeat myself; it's incredibly respectfulness to have to do so.

Your second point has also already been addressed. What is clear is that I am arguing against dogma. People are not listening. I'm sure anarchists have heard what they think is my argument before, but what you think I'm saying is not actually what I'ms aying. If you are not going to read my posts then you need to show some respect to tyoru interlocutor and go and do so because it's incredibly tiring to have to endlessly repeat myself.

I am not advocating for the Labour party. I am not advocating a long term endoresment of our system. I am making a special case based on the reality that exists right now (all things considered). 2020 is the only chance we have to do anything. There is no revolution - how many times?

If you think Corbyn, as the leader of that party, is going to be a carbon copy of the current government then you are just being deliberately ignorant. If that were true he wouldn't have had to face two leadership contests - more importantly had he lost them, I would not be saying this.

And that is also a point I have made and is why I say that I am not endorsing Labour as a party. He may not go far enough, he may not achieve anywhere near all he says he will, but, more importantly, he will put the tories out.

The argument that you will be letting the tories in has not been refuted, no alternative has been given, and no credible evidence has been put forward to support the argument that voting Corbyn will hinder good works.

Where does that leave us?

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Oct 26 2016 08:43
wishface wrote:
fingers malone wrote:
You don't know serge forward and you don't know what 'real issues' he might be involved with.

Why do you persist with the false narrative that supporting a Corbyn vitory in 2020 (all things being equal) prevents long term revolutionary activity.

I don't actually think that, a lot of people do think that, anarchists don't always agree on everything. I think if you want to campaign for Corbyn go for it. I'm not going to attack you for it. My mum has joined the labour party because of Corbyn and so has my aunt, I'm not having goes at them and I'm not going to have a go at you either.

I don't judge people for voting or not voting either way. I voted in the referendum.

I believe the only way we can change things is slow painful work at the grassroots. I am not going to get angry with people who do electoral activity. However if you want to know my alternative idea it is slow painful work in the workplace, in housing, in all areas of our lives. But you won't be able to overthrow the right in the labour party without a mass movement outside electoral politics, so I'm actually helping you.

wishface
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Oct 26 2016 08:44
fingers malone wrote:
wishface wrote:
fingers malone wrote:
I'd also like to say, don't accuse posters of not caring about what people are going through, a lot of posters do loads in the campaigns you mentioned like E15 and are fully aware of how bad things are, don't assume people are coming from an aloof position of not caring, whether they vote or not.

You don't get to play that card. You don't get to tell me I'm making unfair accusations after I have repeatedly and consistently invited you to offer a better alternative.

Mate I'm not trying to play any cards. If you would like me to explain an alternative I will try to do so. I am also not having a go at you for trying to get Corbyn elected either.

what is your alternative?

wishface
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Oct 26 2016 08:49
rat wrote:
Good posts Ed and jesuithitsquad.

Basically speaking, wishface is just trotting out that moth-eaten SWP slogan:

“Vote Labour – with no illusions”

This is just lazy dogmatic thinking; trying to smear me with a partisan accusation. I have nothing to do with the SWP. Never had never will. All you are doing is ignoring a nuanced position and using dogma to do so. That is intellectually lazy and beneath contempt

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Oct 26 2016 09:13

Ok I don't think Corbyn is a carbon copy of the current government, I mean I have actually met the guy, and my mum wouldn't be supporting him if that were true given how much she hates the current government.

I'm sorry that I didn't actually see you had covered the safe seat issue.

My argument is not saying you *shouldn't* support Corbyn- though lots of other people do think that. My argument is that [either way we need to build a grassroots movement. The Labour Party is in control of many labour councils and is evicting tenants, bullying homeless people and many other anti working class actions, we need to fight to stand up for our class whoever is in charge of the council. If your strategy wins, which it might, I'm no armchair Napoleon, then you will be in a position where you have the right wing of the Labour Party against you and you will be fighting that political machine which they have been in control of for a long time. To defend all the changes that you hope a left wing government will make, you will need a mass working class movement. So I believe that either way we need to build that movement and that's what I'm trying to do.

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Oct 26 2016 09:07

My alternative is roughly this.

Build connections between different workplaces, support other workers in struggle, experiment with what works for people in precarious situations such as Deliveroo.

Defend council housing through linking up different estates and strengthen groups like LCAP, HASL and Sisters Uncut which do mutual aid direct action for people in terrible housing situations, to get them housed by the council.

Networks for private renters like Digs.

Strengthen groups like anti raids and Against Borders for Children who fight against immigration raids and immigration harassment of migrants

This is only covering some issues, of course there are many others but as a start.

ajjohnstone
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Oct 26 2016 09:12

"We've had six years of Tory misery with the very real possibility of another 5."

And i have had sixty-two years of Tory and Labour misery sad

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Oct 26 2016 09:51
wishface wrote:
Serge Forward wrote:
Well, that's us told. Maybe I'll go and find a Momentum forum and tell them they're all wrong. Or maybe I'll just see what's on telly instead.

Really? That's the best you can manage?

I did consider a spot of petulant foot-stamping but decided against it in the end.

Quote:
I have repeatedly and consistently invited you to offer a better alternative.

It's there. You just have to read some of the key texts on the website (some of which have already been pointed out to you). We really have better things to do with our time to repeat what's already on here every time some angry young labourite wants to gob off at us.

Oh, and to repeat what Fingers Malone says, you really don't know us or what we have/haven't been involved in. Maybe if you'd started with a less arsey tone, people would have been less likely to give you the short shrift you deserve.

wishface
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Oct 26 2016 10:18
fingers malone wrote:
My alternative is roughly this.

Build connections between different workplaces, support other workers in struggle, experiment with what works for people in precarious situations such as Deliveroo.

Defend council housing through linking up different estates and strengthen groups like LCAP, HASL and Sisters Uncut which do mutual aid direct action for people in terrible housing situations, to get them housed by the council.

Networks for private renters like Digs.

Strengthen groups like anti raids and Against Borders for Children who fight against immigration raids and immigration harassment of migrants

This is only covering some issues, of course there are many others but as a start.

Will that get the Tories out of power by or in 2020?

THose are great things, I support them all. But what will they realistically achieve?

wishface
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Oct 26 2016 10:28
ajjohnstone wrote:
"We've had six years of Tory misery with the very real possibility of another 5."

And i have had sixty-two years of Tory and Labour misery :(

Was the creation of the NHS misery?

If so, are you happy to see it dismantled by the Tories?

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Rob Ray
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Joined: 6-11-03
Oct 26 2016 10:40
Quote:
All I see here is people hiding behind cheap remarks

That, I suspect, is because you aren't reading what's actually being said and are instead arguing against the anarchist in your head. As for what I mean by you having a misapprehension of what people want, if you start talking about:

Quote:
There isn't enough interest in our society to bring about a revolution

That is a teenage view. The idea that what revolution entails is enough people coming to the conclusion "I want a revolution" and then going out and storming Westminster is not one that anybody here would entertain.

Quote:
If you feel patronised by what I've said then perhaps you should look in the mirror instead of blame me.

No, I think I'll blame you. In part because of numerous lines from you which, for example, posit yourself as hard-nosed cynic and us as starry-eyed revolutionists. Neither is true.

You are very clearly not hard-nosed as, even in your own terms, you seem to think your time is best spent persuading tiny numbers of fluffy revolutionists to be reformists rather than doing the actual hard work of persuading "centrists" and even right-wingers in marginal seats that Corbyn's Labour is a viable government. Which is understandable, because it must seem like an easier job and one you can do simply by bouncing over to the requisite forum and spouting "clear-eyed" hyperbole for a while.

But as several (actually clear-eyed) other posters have pointed out, this is actually a foolish strategy which offers few returns and a lot of opprobrium from people who don't generally take very kindly to some know-nothing prat spouting off the same old guff they've heard a thousand times before from better minds than yours. That's the Reality of your situation, tough guy. You're asking people to believe your Napoleon of Politics line when the very strategy you're enacting, right now, is pathetically limp and poorly directed.

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fingers malone
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Joined: 4-05-08
Oct 26 2016 10:38

No it won't, but the problem is, millions of people voted conservative, maybe for various complicated reasons, but a large number of them want and support anti-working class politics. A lot of them are also working class. That is a serious problem both for an electoral politics and for a direct action politics. I hope that doing this grassroots stuff about people's material needs will mean that some people come to think that mutual aid and collective action are good things and reject nationalism or zenophobia or looking down on the unemployed or all the other kinds of anti working class beliefs that are, unfortunately, really popular.

Of course the problem is still there that all these groups and projects I referred to are clustered in certain areas of the country, mainly big cities and probably majority Labour areas, but I have made my life in my barrio and don't want to ever leave. So that's where I am and I am fighting where I am. What to do about small towns and areas with a more conservative culture is something I don't have any answer to, unfortunately.

These groups are all struggling because not many people are involved in them, this is also a problem for friends I have who are involved in trying to reform the Labour Party, lack of working class resistance is something that is part of the fundamental problem we are all facing in whatever form of struggle we believe is the right way.

wishface
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Joined: 24-10-16
Oct 26 2016 10:40
Serge Forward wrote:
It's there. You just have to read some of the key texts on the website (some of which have already been pointed out to you). We really have better things to do with our time to repeat what's already on here every time some angry young labourite wants to gob off at us.

Petulant foot stamping it is then!