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UK - Election: Vote Corbyn

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wishface
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Oct 25 2016 10:10
UK - Election: Vote Corbyn

As I write this, I'm deluged with facebook/social media reports of more ordinary, working class, people, here in the UK, suffering the effects of austerity (ie capitalism). Every day this is the case: people forced into starvation, sick people denied the means to live, mentally ill people bullied and spat on, scrounger rhetoric and division. This country is a time bomb right now. Something, soon, is going to happen.

There isn't going to be a revolution. As much as I would like there to be one - need there to be one - it isn't on the cards. Not remotely close. This country is a class addled divided shithole. The media is against us, vehemently so, the authorities don't care and aren't going to let up. The Tories have al the power, irrespective of the size of their majority.

So in 2020, the only chance there is for anything closely resembling change, the only sane choice, whatever your position, if you care about social justice, is to vote for Jeremy Corbyn. Even then, there's no guarantee he'll be on the ballot (and I wouldn't advocate voting for someone like Owen Smith or Angela Eagle, fwiw). But for the sake of argument, I assume he will be.

Why do I say this? The following reasons:

1. As I have said, there will not be a revolution. This isn't going to happen. I wish it weren't so, desperately. It's what this country needs. But what it needs it's not going to get. So we have to make do with what we have right now. That said, I fully endorse and support revolutionary activity and grassroots activism such as we have seen from groups like DPAC for example, or those resisting bailiffs and evictions - including those instigated by Labour councils. I'm not naive.

2. Since an election is inevitable, the left has a responsibility. If it doesn't vote that then translates into a vote for the Tories. Why: because Tory supporters always vote. They love this system, it's given them tangible results. This is not ideal of course, but there is no reason not to hold your nose and vote when doing so will at the very least send a message to the Tories they are not liked. This is important because, even though Labour are far from socialist (even under Corbyn), the Tories think they are.

It is a necessary evil and a simple brutal truth in the real world: if you don't' vote, you make it 1 vote easier for those that do to retain power and continue their evisceration of our society. Caveat: safe seats are an exception. I recognise all the faults with our electoral system. I accept all the criticisms against this argument, but it does not address the reality: if Corbyn only does one good thing, for instance repealing the Bedroom Tax, that alone is worth holding your nose and helping him win.

You can point to all the shit Labour councils do, such as as I have already hinted at, but that will happen anyway - and if they weren't in power locally do you think their opponents will do better? At least under Corbyn there is a chance, slim or otherwise, this may change.

The bottom line is this: you can still fight for revolutionary change, you can still campaign grassroots direct action, but if you enable the Tories to remain in power, knowing what they have done over the last 6 years already (never mind the next 4), you are complicit in that (aforementioned caveat aside, and any others I have not considered).

NB: I am not stupid, I am not anti working class, I am fully aware how this sounds. But the reality remains. What is your alternative? Thank you for reading.

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jondwhite
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Oct 25 2016 10:31

Not sure if you are trolling or flamebaiting or whatever but assuming you are serious.
We are not 'the left'.
Voting Corbyn is not 'the only chance', 'the sane choice'.
This is the reheated lesser-evil argument which even would have been made against forming a Labour party when the workers chose between Tories and Liberals.
Supporting the lesser of two evils always returns evil and hampers long-term organising. It is not a stepping stone, a halfway house and delays and postpones real revolution. It runs contrary to working class interest.
There is an alternative and it doesn't involve voting for Hillary or Corbyn so not every election is crucial to keep the more reactionary candidate out..

wishface
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Oct 25 2016 10:39
jondwhite wrote:
Not sure if you are trolling or flamebaiting or whatever but assuming you are serious.
We are not 'the left'.
Voting Corbyn is not 'the only chance', 'the sane choice'.
This is the reheated lesser-evil argument which even would have been made against forming a Labour party when the workers chose between Tories and Liberals.
Supporting the lesser of two evils always returns evil and hampers long-term organising. It is not a stepping stone, a halfway house and delays and postpones real revolution. It runs contrary to working class interest.
There is an alternative and it doesn't involve voting for Hillary or Corbyn so not every election is crucial to keep the more reactionary candidate out..

"not sure if you are trolling"...sigh.

If that's what you want to think then by all means show me your alternative,

I don't care what side you identify with, what your ideology is, or anything. I care about social justice. I think I made my point clear enough, if there is something you didn't understand then I welcome the opportunity to try and clarify. If you just want to call me a troll, then you can enjoy doing so under another 5 years of austerity and misery. Your choice.

All the class theory in the world isn't going to bring about change without activity. There isn't enough interest in our society to bring about a revolution so now you have the choice:

1. Hold your nose and vote Corbyn on the likelihood he will offer some form of respite for those dying (no joke) under austerity.
2. Hide inside your ideological bubble and, by refusing to vote, support the status quo.

That's it. I'm sorry if this sounds unpleasant, but in my view this is the only reality.

But, as I say: give me an alternative. I'm not interested in theory. There is no long term organisation. Where we are right now is a situation unprecedented in modern era; Even Thatcher was nowhere near as vicious as this lot. We are losing everything. The NHS is gone, the welfare state is killing people, racism and bigotry are spiralling out of control, we are about the leave the EU, the economy is fucked.

yet in spite of this, there is no hunger for class revolution. Even using this kind of language shuts down the discussion: people don't want to hear about communism, marxism, class this or that. They have been conditioned to reject this stuff. So where does that leave us?

wishface
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Oct 25 2016 10:47
jondwhite wrote:
Supporting the lesser of two evils always returns evil and hampers long-term organising. It is not a stepping stone, a halfway house and delays and postpones real revolution. It runs contrary to working class interest.
There is an alternative and it doesn't involve voting for Hillary or Corbyn so not every election is crucial to keep the more reactionary candidate out..

Prove your claim please, and tell me what the alternative is.

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Ed
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Oct 25 2016 10:51

Firstly, where I live, Labour will win regardless of whether I vote or not. It's a safe Labour seat. We don't have proportional representation so it's not 'every vote matters'.

Secondly, other safe Labour seats are those in Southwark and Lambeth, where Labour have been decimating social housing. Are you calling on Southwark and Lambeth social housing tenants to vote for the people who're trying (and largely succeeding) to kick them out of their homes?

Lastly, not voting Corbyn isn't about fighting the revolution that isn't here instead. It's about spending our campaigning time building organisations that can fight to improve our conditions in the here and now: whether that means unions or extra-union workers' networks, tenants' groups, or local groups to stop closure/cuts to services. And fighting means fighting whoever it is that's attacking us, including Labour councils.

What you're proposing is all of that is subordinated to getting Labour elected in four years' time: what do we do until then? Let Southwark and Lambeth councils sell off all the social housing stock? And what if Corbyn then doesn't come good on his promises? Four years of energy and activism sunk while conditions deteriorate.

Oh well, there's always 2025..

wishface
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Oct 25 2016 11:03

I covered the exception of safe seats, so we don't need to go into that again.

I also highlighted the example of Labour councils decimating social housing and mentioned that it doesn't matter who runs those councils, they will be making the same decision.

You can spend your time building organisations and doing all those things. Voting takes ten minutes of your time so really there is no logistical problem.

However fighting those councils isn't really working. There have been a few victories - the Focus E15 mums for instance, and I commend and support those entirely.

But, for example, Bristol faces almost a total of 100 million worth of cuts udner a labour mayor over the next 4 years. These cuts are horrific and will decimate the city. The counter argument is the Tories will, if those cuts are rejected, simply step in and run the city instead. What is your alternative there, given there is no revolution? There will not be the direct action required to prevent or disrupt that successfully because again there is no revolution. And again I wish it weren't so - in fact having to repeatedly point that out to people that claim to be anarchists is depressing, but there we go.

There will be 2025, there will be 2030 as well, and so on, because there won't be a revolutionary society anytime soon. If you don't like that reality, too bad because we are where we are.

I don't believe Corbyn will come good on everything, I believe that was part of my point made explicit.

My point was that he will ameliorate some conditions, he will offer some respite to people in situations so desperate as to be unprecedented.

What alternative do you offer to the pregnant single mother sanctioned off benefits? Ideology? A few books by Marx or Bakunin? Can she cook them?

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jondwhite
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Oct 25 2016 11:50

Nobody is proposing inactivity. Nobody has to support or vote for Corbyn to defend the working class. The 'alternatives' have been organising for a very very long time. For at least a hundred and fifty years. Are you proposing what has gone before should be jettisoned?

Where we are now is not unprecedented in the modern era!!!

At the start of the twentieth century, supporters of the Liberals might have called for support on the basis they were the lesser evil compared to the Tory party rather than supporting the new Labour party. In case this isn't clear, lesser-evilism was an argument against the Labour party back then and had it been followed would have kept Labour out of power for longer.

There was no welfare state, there were economic recessions, wars and people dying throughout the modern era (including PMs worse than Thatcher) and people still rejected the lesser-evilism argument so they could build the alternatives they wanted and needed today. There was racism, bigotry and low levels of class consciousness.

The Labour party is anti-working class. They only keep getting elected because people vote for them. If you stop voting for them at the next election they will be less effective at the following one. You have the next generation in 2025 and the generation after that in 2030 to answer to if you keep returning Labour oppositions or Labour governments whether with slim majorities or by landslide. Part of the revolution is and will be keeping Labour out of power. You don't do that in the future by electing them now.

If alternatives aren't on the agenda, you should be putting them on, not somebody else, you!

If you are willing to trade ameliorated conditions under austerity to install the Labour party as the ruling class, then the working class will be accustomed to being ruled, and the Labour party will always be prepared to make (or promise) trade-offs or buyouts with some sections in order to rule over you and your class. Alternatives will never be built by those arguing for the lesser-evil.

If you vote for evil and get evil then you are responsible.

wishface
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Oct 25 2016 11:58

Inactivity is what we have. Revolutionary activity is marginal, support is marginal. That's the reality and that's what I'm talking about. Idealism isn't feeding people, foodbanks are and they are overwhelmed. Homeleness has skyrocketed - I've never seen it so bad. This country is fucked, absolutely and totally IMO - and we have three more years to the next election.

The modern era I'm talking about is the one we are living through right now. This is a post industrial advanced society with access to cutting edge technology and yet we are throwing people off the dole to die in poverty. There might not have been a welfare state back then, but there is one now and we are losing it inexorably. I fully expect it to disappear by 2020, privatised likt the NHS. Only today I read an article about tory cuts that will decimate the nation's provision of pharmacies. What will stop this?

I am not disagreeing with the broader points being made. I am speaking in practical terms. You have yet to evidence your claim about stifling revolutionary activity and you have yet to provide an alternative. I do not have the power to put anything on the agenda, but Jeremy Corbyn has the potential to effect at least some, small measure, of change. I believe him to be a relatively decent man (for a politician). That's why I mention him and that's why I said I wouldn't advocate supporting the others, like Eage or Smith. There is a perceptible difference here and dismissing him as the same as the likes of Blair Brown or whoever is just ignorance.

Certainly I could be wrong, but what do I lose by advocating this? The point you are missing is that there is going to inevitably be an election in 2020. That's a given, and someone is going to win it. If that someone can be a person or party that can, at least, ameliorate the suffering currently experience by so many in the working class (and indeed the precariat) then why would you throw that away when you haven't even proven that voting Corbyn would be a worse alternative? To call him evil is just childish, please do better. This isn't a joke, people are fucking dying.

jondwhite wrote:
If you are willing to trade ameliorated conditions under austerity to install the Labour party as the ruling class, then the working class will be accustomed to being ruled, and the Labour party will always be prepared to make (or promise) trade-offs or buyouts with some sections in order to rule over you and your class. Alternatives will never be built by those arguing for the lesser-evil.

As opposed to...?

I have no power to put anything on the agenda. I live in a Tory safe seat. It's a shithole, like the rest of this cunt-ry.

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jondwhite
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Oct 25 2016 12:06

No, people were unnecessarily dying from poverty at worse rates throughout the twentieth century which was a post-industrial advanced society in the modern era. Inactivity is not what we have, revolutionaries have been organising for over a hundred and fifty years.

What will stop Tory cuts will be getting rid of the Tories and their cuts, but ruling classes have always cut living conditions of the working-class as they see fit. You won't change this by installing a new ruling class.

Please don't claim to be speaking in practical terms as if it is an argument for Corbyn, I am speaking in practical terms, so was Marx, Engels and William Morris.

We have had over eleven Labour governments who have done nothing for revolution. Revolution is what will liberate the working class not amelioration. Don't delay it by helping another Labour government govern no matter how decent the leader happens to be (and yes Corbyn seems more decent than most). You will lose fellow workers trust and credibility as a revolutionary worker.

If you want a revolution and including Labour out of power, when are you going to start and stay true to keeping Labour out?

wishface
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Oct 25 2016 12:47
jondwhite wrote:
No, people were unnecessarily dying from poverty at worse rates throughout the twentieth century which was a post-industrial advanced society in the modern era. Inactivity is not what we have, revolutionaries have been organising for over a hundred and fifty years.

What will stop Tory cuts will be getting rid of the Tories and their cuts, but ruling classes have always cut living conditions of the working-class as they see fit. You won't change this by installing a new ruling class.

Please don't claim to be speaking in practical terms as if it is an argument for Corbyn, I am speaking in practical terms, so was Marx, Engels and William Morris.

We have had over eleven Labour governments who have done nothing for revolution. Revolution is what will liberate the working class not amelioration. Don't delay it by helping another Labour government govern no matter how decent the leader happens to be (and yes Corbyn seems more decent than most). You will lose fellow workers trust and credibility as a revolutionary worker.

If you want a revolution and including Labour out of power, when are you going to start and stay true to keeping Labour out?

The comparison to life around 100 years ago wasn't the comparison I was making, and I have explained this.

Yes, to stop the cuts we need to get rid of the people making them. So again what is your solution for this?

You have not spoken in practical terms, you have made numerous appeals to ideology.

You misrepresent my argument once more: i did not say that Labour had or will ever do anything for the revolution. That is not my argument. However reolutionary or not, it was Bevan and a Labour government that brought in the NHS. While it might not be the most egalitarian system ever, it remains a consistently better healthcare service than the american model advocated and being brought into place by the current government. If you wish to argue that was a capitalist sop you will have to provide evidence for this also, as I do not believe Bevan thought that was what he was doing.

When am I going to start? When the bleeding has stopped. Currently our society is an open wound. You don't heal it before stopping the flow of blood.

ajjohnstone
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Oct 25 2016 13:27

Which party do you recommend workers vote for in Northern Ireland and Scotland?

Is it still Corbyn and the Labour Party?

Northern Ireland if i recollect, doesn't have a UK Labour Party so that is out.
Scotland - Labour has not got a snowball in hells chance of beating the SNP who have adopted most of the Labour Party's positions so a Labour vote is a wasted vote.

So your proposal for the Labour vote is much the same as for the EU referendum...only England and Wales count politically.

wishface
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Oct 25 2016 15:07
ajjohnstone wrote:
Which party do you recommend workers vote for in Northern Ireland and Scotland?

Is it still Corbyn and the Labour Party?

Northern Ireland if i recollect, doesn't have a UK Labour Party so that is out.
Scotland - Labour has not got a snowball in hells chance of beating the SNP who have adopted most of the Labour Party's positions so a Labour vote is a wasted vote.

So your proposal for the Labour vote is much the same as for the EU referendum...only England and Wales count politically.

I don't live in those areas so there may be circumstances that are different due to the vagaries of devolved politics. But tentatively I would still advocate Corbyn or perhaps the SNP who seem to have similar ideas.

This isn't a permanent deal. I'm not advocating voting for labour under all conditions all the time. I am saying that, right now, this is what needs to happen because if you genuinely care about the working class you will do what you can to effect whatever positive change can be wrought given how dire the situation is now.

It seems peculiar to me that it's impossible to both hold to a revolutionary ideal while supporting using the system to effect change where possible. That doesn't mean you have to support the parliamentary system per se, just that, given the situation, you use it to make things better where possible while working toward a long term revolutionary goal. But that long term is decades if not centuries away.

I'm still waiting on a workable alternative. Just saying we need revolution will not make it so and, in my experience, the anarchists i've come across have been all talk. Just look at the idiots that call themselves 'Class War'; all they do is resort to abuse and cuss words; they have a photo on their facebook calling Corbyn a reformist wanker, meanwhile they put Lisa McKenzie up to stand against IDS! Utter hypocrisy. Meanwhile in bristol they are petrol mombing cars in suburbs. Great!

Spikymike
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Oct 25 2016 15:46

Those who wait for others die waiting. A Corbyn led government is unlikely, but if it were to come about, then bar a few scraps thrown to the fools who voted for it, nothing of substance will have changed. The problem is capitalism, whichever government tries to run it - because it runs them!

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Chilli Sauce
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Oct 25 2016 16:03
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As I have said, there will not be a revolution. This isn't going to happen.

So, this has already been covered, but we can accomplish a lot short of revolution and the ways we accomplish that (direct action, self-organization, industrial action, campaigning) don't change regardless of who's in power.

I sort of see why the extremely low level of class power and class confidence leads to a sense of defeatism that makes voting look attractive. But a belief in electoralism (either proactive or lesser of two evils) reinforces that passivity.

Anyway, go ahead and vote, I don't really care and I don't even usually bother to have the argument, but please spare us the lecturing.

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Red Marriott
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Oct 25 2016 16:25

Just join The Pirate Party and all your dreams will come true and capitalism will magically become something really nice;

Quote:
The party that could be on the cusp of winning Iceland’s national elections on Saturday didn’t exist four years ago.

Its members are a collection of anarchists, hackers, libertarians and web geeks. It sets policy through online polls – and thinks the government should do the same. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/iceland-braces-for-a-digi...

Fleur
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Oct 25 2016 17:25

wishface:

You're really not going to get a lot of support for voting Labour here, although to be quite honest I don't really care if you do or don't vote. I think people who fetishize not voting to be as dreary and preachy and irrelevant to my life as those bang on about how important voting is.

However, I think you might be investing a wee bit too much hope in this one man. Even if Labour wins the next election (unlikely) Corbyn doesn't have the support of the PLP, it's highly unlikely that all the MPs involved in the coup will be de-selected, so they'll all be sitting behind him, not co-operating. That's not much of a recipe for Corbyn ushering any serious changes.

If I was really, really cynical* I would suspect that the Labour right might be playing the long game and actually hoping not to win the next election, so they can get rid of Corbyn et al return to the status quo.

I understand the desperation of UK folks, from what I see things have deteriorated to something abysmal and the Tory party are a very special kind of pond scum, but investing so much hope in one man is destined to lead only to disappointment, not to mention a huge waste of time. How much energy was spent on Momentum this summer, energy which could have been spent more productively elsewhere?

*Actually, I'm really, really, really, really cynical.

Fleur
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Oct 25 2016 17:28

Also, I'm pretty sure you're wasting your time trying to talk us into voting for Labour. The potential anarchist voting power is probably not even large enough to swing a parish council vote, let alone a general election tongue

wishface
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Oct 25 2016 17:34
Spikymike wrote:
Those who wait for others die waiting. A Corbyn led government is unlikely, but if it were to come about, then bar a few scraps thrown to the fools who voted for it, nothing of substance will have changed. The problem is capitalism, whichever government tries to run it - because it runs them!

How does that alter anything I've said?

A few scraps is better than no scraps for those 'fools' (nice attitude) who need them.

So by all means continue fighting against capitalism. I support that entirely, but the two positions aren't mutually exclusive.

And again, no alternative is offered, only platitudes.

wishface
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Oct 25 2016 17:36
Chilli Sauce wrote:
Quote:
As I have said, there will not be a revolution. This isn't going to happen.

So, this has already been covered, but we can accomplish a lot short of revolution and the ways we accomplish that (direct action, self-organization, industrial action, campaigning) don't change regardless of who's in power.

I sort of see why the extremely low level of class power and class confidence leads to a sense of defeatism that makes voting look attractive. But a belief in electoralism (either proactive or lesser of two evils) reinforces that passivity.

Anyway, go ahead and vote, I don't really care and I don't even usually bother to have the argument, but please spare us the lecturing.

What is being accomplished right now?

Has it succeeded in getting justice for those sanctioned to death? Has it removed the bedroom tax? Has it stopped fracking, and so on?

I fully support the efforts of those undertaking such actions. DPAC for example are nothing short of heroes. But they are alone and not enough. That's the tragedy and the reality of it all.

I will not spare you the 'lecturing'. Is this an authoritarian posture? I have every right to proffer my opinion.

wishface
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Oct 25 2016 17:37
Red Marriott wrote:
Just join The Pirate Party and all your dreams will come true and capitalism will magically become something really nice;

Quote:
The party that could be on the cusp of winning Iceland’s national elections on Saturday didn’t exist four years ago.

Its members are a collection of anarchists, hackers, libertarians and web geeks. It sets policy through online polls – and thinks the government should do the same. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/iceland-braces-for-a-digi...

Or you could actually respond to what i've said and not what you think I've said.

wishface
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Oct 25 2016 17:40
Fleur wrote:
Also, I'm pretty sure you're wasting your time trying to talk us into voting for Labour. The potential anarchist voting power is probably not even large enough to swing a parish council vote, let alone a general election tongue

It's my time to waste.

And I'm not talking you into voting labour. I'm trying to talk you into recognising that, in 2020, the just thing to do is to put Corbyn into power. He may not even be leader by then and if someone like Owen Smith is on the ballot, then, as I've already said, I wouldn't support that.

That the anarchist bloc in the uk is tiny is exactly my point.

So, for the fourth time of asking, what is the alternative, other than putting the Tories back into power for five more years of misery. People are suffering and I don't see much compassion here at all.

radicalgraffiti
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Oct 25 2016 17:42

replace syriza with corbyn

wishface
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Oct 25 2016 17:42
Fleur wrote:
wishface:
However, I think you might be investing a wee bit too much hope in this one man. Even if Labour wins the next election (unlikely) Corbyn doesn't have the support of the PLP, it's highly unlikely that all the MPs involved in the coup will be de-selected, so they'll all be sitting behind him, not co-operating. That's not much of a recipe for Corbyn ushering any serious changes.

That may be true, but you're still not getting it.

Even if that's your reason not to vote Corbyn in, the alternative is that, since there will be an election in 2020 and there won't be a revolution, the Tories will retain power. Which is worse?

wishface
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Oct 25 2016 17:43
radicalgraffiti wrote:
replace syriza with corbyn

Our situation is different so there isn't the likelihood of Corbyn being humbled by the troika as Sypras (sp?) was. We are a sovereign currency.

So, for the fifth time of asking, what is the alternative?

radicalgraffiti
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Oct 25 2016 17:44
wishface wrote:

So, for the fourth time of asking, what is the alternative, other than putting the Tories back into power for five more years of misery. People are suffering and I don't see much compassion here at all.

ajjohnstone
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Oct 25 2016 18:03

http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2006-07/1240

Never mind, the cost of running the NHS under Corbyn is guaranteed to come down if elected

The homeopathy-believing/trusting Labour Party leader just needs to change all the Big Pharma pills and potions to water, as long as they don't buy them from Boots the Chemist

http://www.boots.com/en/Pharmacy-Health/Health-shop/Alternative-therapy/...

The alternative is simple...keep telling your family, your friends, your fellow workers, they are f##ing delusional to think there will be a permanent amelioration of their circumstances from a Labour Govt. eventually the message might sink in when they witness the actions of Labour.

Introduces the national health service, as you say - and then the first to introduce charges to this free health service ...

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Rob Ray
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Oct 25 2016 20:23
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Our situation is different so there isn't the likelihood of Corbyn being humbled

Lol "wishface" really is a wonderfully accurate moniker.

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jondwhite
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Oct 25 2016 20:34
wishface wrote:

The comparison to life around 100 years ago wasn't the comparison I was making, and I have explained this.

Yes, to stop the cuts we need to get rid of the people making them. So again what is your solution for this?

You have not spoken in practical terms, you have made numerous appeals to ideology.

You misrepresent my argument once more: i did not say that Labour had or will ever do anything for the revolution. That is not my argument. However reolutionary or not, it was Bevan and a Labour government that brought in the NHS. While it might not be the most egalitarian system ever, it remains a consistently better healthcare service than the american model advocated and being brought into place by the current government. If you wish to argue that was a capitalist sop you will have to provide evidence for this also, as I do not believe Bevan thought that was what he was doing.

When am I going to start? When the bleeding has stopped. Currently our society is an open wound. You don't heal it before stopping the flow of blood.

You can start by explaining why political and especially class consciousness, and membership of organised labour unions has probably gone down over the last hundred years. Maybe something to do with, among other reactionary arguments, what is commonly known as the lesser of two evils argument. Sure you are happy to subjugate history and the future to the now, where you are urging us vote for Corbyn. Forget about elections gone by and elections to come after the next one. Living standards can be better under lesser evils but we want the best and the way to get that is refusing to accept anyone to rule over us.

wishface
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Oct 25 2016 20:44
ajjohnstone wrote:
http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2006-07/1240

Never mind, the cost of running the NHS under Corbyn is guaranteed to come down if elected

The homeopathy-believing/trusting Labour Party leader just needs to change all the Big Pharma pills and potions to water, as long as they don't buy them from Boots the Chemist

http://www.boots.com/en/Pharmacy-Health/Health-shop/Alternative-therapy/...

The alternative is simple...keep telling your family, your friends, your fellow workers, they are f##ing delusional to think there will be a permanent amelioration of their circumstances from a Labour Govt. eventually the message might sink in when they witness the actions of Labour.

Introduces the national health service, as you say - and then the first to introduce charges to this free health service ...

Firstly, his comment about homeopathy is as follows:

"4. The NHS currently spends hundreds of millions of pounds funding alternative and homeopathic medicine. Would this policy continue under your Labour government?

I don't support the NHS spending taxpayers’ money on medicine where it is not backed up by clear, scientific evidence as to its effectiveness."

(source:
http://www.scientistsforlabour.org.uk/en/index.php?option=com_content&vi...)

So we can ignore the nonsense about homeopathy on good grounds. However it's not really relevant is it: plenty of anarchists engage in alternative medicines and other 'unscientific' practices. Should they be ignored within our community? What about those community members who believe vaccinating kids is dangerous? This is not really a rabbit hole you want to go down I think.

I presume your comment about the cost of the NHS is intended as sarcasm. It's hard to tell quite honestly and I wish people wouldn't engage in that kind of puerile banter tbh.

So to you real point, that doesn't address what I have said either. I didn't say Corbyn would make a permanent change. I am talking about the election in 2020 and, as I've made repeatedly clear, I am not selling the notion the Labour party will permanently change things. At this point I dont know how to make that clearer. I have repeatedly stated that revolutionary activity should occur simultaneously so that we don't have to rely on Labour. My only argument is based on ameliorating the conditions that exist right now. If you are not prepared to offer anything to support that end, and it seems people on here aren't, then I can only conclude that youre anarchists in theory, not in practice.

wishface
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Joined: 24-10-16
Oct 25 2016 20:45
Rob Ray wrote:
Quote:
Our situation is different so there isn't the likelihood of Corbyn being humbled

Lol "wishface" really is a wonderfully accurate moniker.

unlike wishing for a revolution?

wishface
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Joined: 24-10-16
Oct 25 2016 20:51
jondwhite wrote:
You can start by explaining why political and especially class consciousness, and membership of organised labour unions has probably gone down over the last hundred years. Maybe something to do with, among other reactionary arguments, what is commonly known as the lesser of two evils argument. Sure you are happy to subjugate history and the future to the now, where you are urging us vote for Corbyn. Forget about elections gone by and elections to come after the next one. Living standards can be better under lesser evils but we want the best and the way to get that is refusing to accept anyone to rule over us.

I don't know how any of this relates to anything I have said. What does 'subjugate history' even mean? How many times have I asked for an alternative? You have yet to provide anything remotely credible that will effect real change, no matter how small.

We want the best, but that isn't going to happen anytime close to soon. There is more chance of being struck by lightning than there being a revolution in the UK. Again I wish it were different, but wishful thinking seems to be all that you have. I am dealing with practicalities and yet noone here seems to be able to grasp the idea of using existing structures to benefit the working class on a temporary basis while working toward something better.

Tell me your alternative. I've yet to hear it. I asked afed in Bristol how big they were. The number was about 20 (iirc). It was a dismally small number. All of these people (arsonists aside) I'm sure are decent honourable people, that's not my contention, but 20 people aren't going to change anything, so what do you propose?