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the SWP-name and shame their stupid actions from past and present.

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Tojiah
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Jul 29 2010 20:13
ncwob wrote:
Entdinglichung wrote:
and do not forget the cover-up of a rape committed by a full-time functionary of the German clone org of the SWP in the mid 1990ies, he was simply sent to another city to continue his work there and remained a member of their leadership for a couple of years

Wow, wonder if the SWP has any idea how close its operations are to the Catholic church...

Well, Trots were being branded as Jesuits from very early on, so color me surprised.. roll eyes

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Entdinglichung
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Jul 30 2010 15:15
Tojiah wrote:
ncwob wrote:
Entdinglichung wrote:
and do not forget the cover-up of a rape committed by a full-time functionary of the German clone org of the SWP in the mid 1990ies, he was simply sent to another city to continue his work there and remained a member of their leadership for a couple of years

Wow, wonder if the SWP has any idea how close its operations are to the Catholic church...

Well, Trots were being branded as Jesuits from very early on, so color me surprised.. roll eyes

the Mandelites expelled their Japanese section in 1991 because of a culture of sexism and sexist violence in this organization and only recognized a women-only group for around a decade as their official Japanese affiliate

Harrison
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Mar 30 2011 18:27

i know i'm resurrecting an old thread, and i know this is report is from the CPGB:
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=93
but its still pretty bad. (although nothing on some of the stuff in this thread!)

whats funny is that they criticise the SWP central committee:

Quote:
If you fall out with the central committee that is what happens to you.

and then go on to present their own central committee as heroic:

Quote:
The CPGB's Provisional Central Committee will be writing to Respect's national council asking for it to investigate the matter
bootsy
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Mar 30 2011 20:54
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On July 7, the second day of full Marxism, Socialist Workers Party national organiser Martin Smith physically assaulted comrade Simon, a member of the Communist Party of Great Britain and the Tower Hamlets branch of Respect.

Fixed.

Sir Arthur Stre...
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Mar 30 2011 21:46

On the march for Ian Tomlinson, despite being asked specifically not to by the Tomlinson family the SWP set up a stall and sold their paper.

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KriegPhilosophy
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Apr 2 2011 00:26

But, lets just thank our stars that they don't have brains. just imagine trots ruling this country.

petey
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Apr 2 2011 18:49
KriegPhilosophy wrote:
just imagine trots ruling this country.

then you'd be the u.s.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/02/01/GR2008020102389.html

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Apr 2 2011 19:40

There are a couple of interesting quotes at the start of this RevLeft thread:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/jew-free-holocaust-t98069/index.html?

Devrim

Edit: Actually I just looked through the whole thread, and its not bad, worth a read if you have nothing better to do.

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Apr 4 2011 18:30
petey wrote:
KriegPhilosophy wrote:
just imagine trots ruling this country.

then you'd be the u.s.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/02/01/GR2008020102389.html

Oh that's a deep thought-provoking article roll eyes

FYI, Leon Trotsky's great-granddaughter, Nora Volkow, has been director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse.

David in Atlanta
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Apr 13 2011 14:29
Farce wrote:
freemind wrote:
Also when a demo for victimised Anti-Apartheid militant Moses Mayekiso was announced the SWP declared they were boycotting the event but still turned up at the end of the march to sell their paper!Slags!

Why did they say they were boycotting it?

I can't say this is the reason but I recall there were folks on the left here who didn't support Mayekiso because his wing of the South African union movement was pushing a "workers charter" that was significantly more radical than the ANC. Some also accused those of us who did support him of trying to build a "cult of personality". Not at all like was done with Mandela of course.

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Sep 6 2011 07:32

There's always this:

‘The breathing space provided by the presence of British troops is short but vital. Those who call for the immediate withdrawal of the troops before the men behind the barricades can defend themselves are inviting a pogrom which will hit first and hardest at socialists.’
Socialist Worker, No. 137, 11 September 1969

T La Palli
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Sep 6 2011 11:23

Is there anywhere a decent article on the history of Trotskism in Britain? And any good articles critical of the SWP that covers the type of things in this thread but constructed into a proper article?

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Sep 6 2011 13:29
T La Palli wrote:
Is there anywhere a decent article on the history of Trotskism in Britain? And any good articles critical of the SWP that covers the type of things in this thread but constructed into a proper article?

there is something in Robert J. Alexander's International Trotskyism, 1929-1985. A Documented Analysis of the Movement, the stuff about Britain isn't online but the book should be available in every decent university library ... some more stuff (also mostly not online) of varying quality in Revolutionary History ... for half-decent articles with a lot of (often entertaining) gossip, look at the articles of Sean Matgamna on the AWL homepage ... for the pre- and early history of British Trotskyism, there is e.g. stuff by Martin Upham, Reg Groves and Sam Bornstein

definitely rubbish is Ted Grant's History of British Trotskysm

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Sep 6 2011 14:16
Quote:
I wouldn't exactly call it "stupid" because it was very effective in obscuring the question of war, nationalism and imperialism, but during the Cold War (and since) the SWP has supported various murderous regimes under the guise of "national liberation" and "genuine national and popular movements" - ie, excuses for supporting various imperialist regimes and factions that is used far wider than the SWP.

]As Baboon points out it’s a mistake to critique the SWP as stupid, or bureaucratic, or opportunistic. They function as a left faction of capital. Down through the years, they’ve lined up behind butcher after butcher of the working class, pushing the Trot lie that there are progressive factions of the bourgeoisie that can be given ‘critical’ support. It’s been more than 30 years since I’ve been at one of their public meetings, but well remember the aggressive hostility I met for denouncing their support for Khomeni in Iraq and Mugabe in Zimbabwe’s seizure of power. They claimed both were victories for ‘progressive forces’. Just like their support for Ho Chi Min, the MPLA, the ANC, Sinn Fein etc etc. etc and, today, murderous bourgeois shits like Hizbollah, the SWP have workers' blood on their hands. And that’s without getting into their support for the unions, and the Labour party (‘critical’ support of course), and their current campaign against Tory cuts that seeks to mask that the cuts were being carried out by the last Labour government and who made no secret of their plans to carry out far worse attacks if they’d been elected, and the fact that similar, and worse, cuts are being overseen by Labour governments in the likes of Spain and Greece. Their support for anti-fascism also ties in with their defence of Democracy and their world view that there are ‘progressive’ as well as reactionary bourgeois factions (though clearly many posting on this site fail to see the reactionary nature of anti-fascism, too.). They function well using their apparently radical rhetoric to hoover up militants struggling to develop a political understanding, and tying them to bourgeois politics, often burning them out and spewing them out into demoralisation.

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Sep 7 2011 08:28
Murray McDonald wrote:
There's always this:

‘The breathing space provided by the presence of British troops is short but vital. Those who call for the immediate withdrawal of the troops before the men behind the barricades can defend themselves are inviting a pogrom which will hit first and hardest at socialists.’
Socialist Worker, No. 137, 11 September 1969

which conflict is this about?

shug, good post.

Palli, general articles, I'm not sure, but the Carry on recruiting pamphlet about the SWP is a good one:
http://libcom.org/library/carry-recruiting-why-socialist-workers-party-dumped-downturn-dash-growth

no1
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Sep 7 2011 08:39
Steven. wrote:
which conflict is this about?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles#Riots_of_August_1969

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Sep 7 2011 15:56

SWP Dismissing poll tax non payment as futile

Twenty things you never knew about him (most here will do)

http://www.anarchist-theft.net/theft3 If i remember right it was put together by someone in AF.

Not on the SWP, but i was interviewed by one of the people who did trotwatch about my time inside Workers Power many years ago, though not sure if it was ever published.

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May 31 2012 13:39

http://swp.ie/content/egypts-revolution-continues-despite-poll

SWP Ireland: Vote Muslim Brothers in the 2nd round

Quote:

In fact the choice is clear. A vote for Shafiq would be a vote against the revolution.

A vote for Mursi is a vote against the legacy of Mubarak and for continuing change.

Revolutionary activists will not enjoy voting for Mursi.

If they do not do so, however, they are likely to experience the real nightmare scenario—a president cloned from the dictator they overthrew last year.

Mursi is not in a strong position. The Brotherhood has struggled since the start of the revolution.

Its leaders have tried to make deals with Egypt’s real rulers—the generals of the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (SCAF).

At the same time they have been under great pressure from their own members and supporters to deliver further change.

They have suffered many splits and defections as it becomes clear that they can’t meet the people’s needs and expectations.

There was striking evidence of the wish for change in Hamdeen Sabbahi’s first-round vote.

He was backed mainly by workers, urban poor and revolutionary activists. He presented himself as one of the people.

Sabbahi had none of the advantages of the Brotherhood, with its national network of branches.

Nor did he enjoy the benefits that Shafiq—who was backed by SCAF and much of the media—did.

Yet Sabbahi carried Cairo, Alexandria and most cities heavily involved in the struggles of 2011-12, ending only 2 percent behind Shafiq.

This was a vote for the revolution on a scale which surprised even Sabbahi’s own supporters.

Egyptians will be better off with Mursi as president and an unstable Brotherhood in parliament than with Shafiq in office. Shafiq is backed by generals who wish to bring the revolution to an abrupt end.

Now it is time to put Mursi to the test—and to continue struggles over jobs, wages, union rights and for radical political change.

Havaan
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May 31 2012 16:54

The RevSoc in Egypt are pushing the line as well, there close allies iirc.

Mark.
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Jun 1 2012 11:02
Havaan wrote:
The RevSoc in Egypt are pushing the line as well, there close allies iirc.
Jano Charbel wrote:

Dear #RevSoc comrades: Supporting the #MuslimBrotherhood's bid for #EgyPresident is a policy which is neither revolutionary nor socialist!

True, Ahmed Shafiq is the counter-revolution's presidential candidate. Yet this doesn't make Mohamed Morsi "the candidate of the revolution"

Hey @3arabawy thanks for unfollowing me my dear friend. U can also block me if you want:-) I still won't support #RevSoc's pro-Morsi stance.

Voting for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil. [Via @fazerofzanight] #Egypt #EgyPresident #Boycott #FuckMorsi #FuckShafiq!

http://twitter.com/#!/janocharbel

Edit: from Jano Charbel's blog (originally posted here)

Standing against the "electoral" counter-revolution in Egypt

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jura
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Jun 1 2012 11:28

Wow, this is so bad it's almost funny.

Android
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Jun 1 2012 15:09

In their statement on the elections, RS call for a 'national front' as well:

Quote:
We therefore call on all the reformist and revolutionary forces and the remainder of the revolutionary candidates to form a national front which stands against the candidate of counter-revolution, and demands that the Muslim Brotherhood declares its commitment to the following:

1. Formation of a presidential coalition which includes Hamdeen Sabbahi and Abd-al-Moneim Abu-al-Fotouh as Vice-Presidents.
2. The selection of a Prime Minister from outside the ranks of the Brotherhood and the Freedom and Justice Party and the formation of a government across the whole political spectrum in which the Copts are represented.
3. The approval of a law on trade union freedoms which clearly supports the pluralism and independence of the workers’ movement in contrast to the draft law proposed by the Brotherhood to the People’s Assembly.
4. The Brotherhood’s agreement with other political forces on a civil constitution which guarantees social justice, the right to free, quality healthcare and education, the right to strike, demonstrate and organise peaceful sit-ins, the public and private rights of all citizens, and the genuine representation of women, the Copts, working people and the youth in the Constituent Assembly. We cannot fail here to call on the Muslim Brotherhood and all the political forces to put the interests of the revolution before party-political interest and to unite against Shafiq so that we do not deliver our revolution to its enemies as easy prey.

http://muftah.org/revolutionary-socialists-statement-on-egypts-presidential-elections/

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Jun 1 2012 19:05

Prior to the Egyptian intifada RevSoc were actually decent. As soon as bourgeois democracy (regardless of how fake it still is) was instituted, RevSoc started behaving just like the SWP. Disappointing and pathetic.

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Jun 2 2012 11:45

I got stopped by an SWP newspaper seller last week, who told me about some meeting he wanted me to go. I'm not very good at saying no to people, so i tried to think of an excuse about why i couldnt turn up on this tuesday evening. problem is i dont think that fast either so i ended up saying "sorry i won't be able to come on tuesday, i've got something on on tuesday, i can't remember what it is, but i've got something on...' laugh out loud

the guys face was quality

Mark.
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Jun 2 2012 21:09

So it looks like the line is now 'vote Islamist without illusions'.

Khawaga wrote:
Prior to the Egyptian intifada RevSoc were actually decent. As soon as bourgeois democracy (regardless of how fake it still is) was instituted, RevSoc started behaving just like the SWP.

The Egypt Independent published this fairly sympathetic profile of the Revolutionary Socialists back in January. I'd be interested to know how it corresponds to Khawaga's impressions of them.

Jano Charbel and Omar Halawa wrote:

"We want to bring down the state, yes this is what we want, and I don’t know why people laugh when I say this. Indeed, the best solution for Egypt is to bring down the military’s state and build a new one.”

These are the words of Sameh Naguib, a member of the Revolutionary Socialists movement, recorded in a clip that has been circulating over the past few weeks on online social networks. His words, and those of his comrades, have sparked widespread controversy over the nature of the ideas espoused by this movement and the political ideology of its members.

For example, three members of the Muslim Brotherhood filed a complaint in late December with the public prosecution against some of the movement’s members, including Naguib, claiming that they are inciting unrest with the aim of overthrowing the state ― and even conspiring to burn down state facilities. 

But members of the group purport that their call is for a radical transformation of the Egyptian state and how the military wing has come to be its strongest and most privileged institution.

“The democratization of Egypt depends on the occurrence of a real revolution in which sovereignty and priority is given to the demands of the masses,” said Ahmad Ezzat, a member of the Revolutionary Socialists. “However the SCAF’s idea for democratic transformation is a deal which it made with a number of elitist liberal political forces and others, such as the Muslim Brotherhood, who represent the majority of voters, to draw up a road map for the country which will ensure it has a semi-permanent position allowing it to intervene in the country’s governance.”

The group seeks to push 25 January toward a socialist revolution. Yet, following the recent parliamentary elections, the character of the state appears to be drifting toward Islamism rather than socialism, with Islamist coalitions reaping about 65 percent of the seats in the People's Assembly.

For Hisham Fouad, a labor journalist and founding member of the socialist group, a presidential or parliamentary democracy is not the ideal way to establish a socialist society or workers’ state. “We don’t believe that parliamentary politics are the best way to represent the will or interests of the masses. This system serves to protect the interests of businessmen and the wealthy ― those who can afford the expenses of electoral campaigning.”

Echoing Fouad, Ezzat believes that the Islamists’ established power in parliament is leading Egypt away from the revolution.

“Unfortunately, most political forces work toward their own personal gains and have completely abandoned the revolutionary dream of change to the end, in particular the Islamist forces that after having succeeded in reaping the majority of votes in parliament completely abandoned the idea of completing the revolution,” he said of the Islamist majority in the People's Assembly, which was seated a few days ago.

Predating the 25 January revolution by two decades, the Revolutionary Socialists group was established in 1990 by a group of youths from Egyptian universities around the time of the demise of the Soviet Union and breakout of revolutions against socialist regimes in Eastern Europe.

In light of its Marxist–Leninist or Trotskyist orientation, the socialist group welcomed the collapse of the USSR ― saying it was a “degenerated workers’ state,” and failed experiment in “state capitalism” or “market socialism.”

At its onset, the group was interested in filling a void in the Egyptian left, especially in the wake of what it viewed as the failure of economic liberalization policies under presidents Anwar Sadat and Hosni Mubarak.

Despite their working-class orientation, most of the group's members ― some claim the membership is in the thousands ― are students and professionals. Very few blue-collar workers or farmers populate its ranks.

This month, the organization launched an open-ended campaign dubbed “The Square and the Factories are One Hand” in an attempt to unify workers and street protesters toward realizing the revolutionary demands of “Bread, freedom and social justice.”

This campaign demands the establishment of a monthly minimum wage (of LE1,500, or about US$250) and a maximum wage (not more than ten times the minimum), issuance of a new trade union law, continued right to strike or protest, establishment of independent unions, legal collective bargaining, and fixed contracts for full-time laborers, among other demands.

With the eruption of the 25 January revolution, the group's members have revisited their vision for a socialist state. Some members believe that forming parties can be an important act in the transitional period to ultimately bring about a socialist state.

Egypt’s Trotskyists ― who include the Revolutionary Socialists and Socialist Renewal Current ― have been instrumental in establishing the Workers Democratic Party and the Socialist Popular Alliance Party, respectively.

"We supported the establishment of the Workers Democratic Party so that Egypt will have a party that reflects the demands of laborers in general,” said Ezzat, who acknowledges the limitations placed on class-based parties in the Political Parties Law.

While the Socialist Popular Alliance Party has been registered, the Workers Democratic Party is not yet official.

But Fouad believes a socialist state will be realized through other means.

“The best way to represent the toiling classes is through elected workers’ councils and farmers’ councils, which directly represent the will of their constituents,” he said. “These councils will serve to facilitate the self-organization and administration by these laborers in a socialist state.”

Many criticize the Revolutionary Socialists ― along with other Trotskyist movements ― for their centralized and vanguardist approach to working-class and revolutionary politics, a criticism they find hard to shake off.

According to Fouad, “Although a number of Leninist and Trotskyist parties have indeed followed this policy in the past, we ourselves are not vanguardists.”

“This revolution, as with all others, was led by progressive elements in society. We are merely an organization for the most progressive of these elements,” he added.

As he further explained, “We believe in democratic centralism. In this sense we fully support freedom of expression, opinion and dissent. Our centrality is based only on the unity of our democratic will.”  

For many activists and observers, the Revolutionary Socialists are important as a radical political voice, yet they are far from being able to bring down the state, as Naguib suggested.

Ashraf al-Sherif, a professor of political science at the American University in Cairo, said the movement will not be able to radically transform Egypt because its political project is based on seizing control of the state. This would require its presence in all state production sectors, which at the moment the group is too weak to accomplish, he said.

“In most cases of democratization, moderate movements will prevail in the end rather than radical ones such as the Revolutionary Socialists, as [socialist] policies are directed more toward protest than reform,” he said. “Clinging to radical ideas does not usually serve the owners of these ideas.”

And while many, even within the Egyptian left, criticize the Revolutionary Socialists for sticking to what many perceive to be an outdated Trotskyist ideology, the group's members say their policies are based on their own vision of the events taking place in Egypt. Seeking a classless society ― indeed a classless world ― they argue that the majority of conflicts in communities are the result of class conflicts, even when they take on other forms such as political conflict or sectarianism.

IrrationallyAngry
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Jun 5 2012 14:55

The call for a vote for the Muslim Brotherhood, alongside the call for what could most charitably be described as a popular front government, is absolutely bizarre. And it's not just the Egyptian grouping going off the rails, they have been echoed and supported by the British and Irish SWPs.

It's not something that is remotely in keeping with their "Trotskyism" - backing electoral candidates from ruling class parties and even more so calling for a government "across the political spectrum" are as unacceptable in that tradition as they are in Anarchism. I've no idea what they are playing at on this one.

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Khawaga
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Jun 5 2012 15:08

In the tradition of Cliffism, which is what the SWP and its ilk really are, it seems to be par for the course.

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Devrim
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Jun 5 2012 15:25
Khawaga wrote:
In the tradition of Cliffism, which is what the SWP and its ilk really are, it seems to be par for the course.

I don't think it really is. I don't think that Cliff would have gone along with something like this. It is in line with their more recent progress though.

Devrim

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Khawaga
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Jun 5 2012 15:30

Ok, I stand corrected.

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Devrim
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Jun 5 2012 15:39

While I am posting on this thread, the Turkish sister section of the SWP supported the Turkish government in its referendum in 2010, and were congratulated by the Prime Minister afterwards:

Tayip Erdoğan wrote:
"Bu değişikliğe destek veren CHP’li, MHP’li, BDP’li kardeşlerimi tehditlere aldırmadan sandığa giden kardeşlerimi kutluyorum. Başından itibaren “Evet” diyerek desteğini veren Saadet Partili kardeşlerimi, BBP’li kardeşlerimi, Hak-Par’lı kardeşlerimi, Bağımsız Ülkücüleri, Kürt Aydınları, Devrimci Sosyalist İşçi Partili arkadaşlarımı kutluyorum. Başından beri evet diyen AKP’li kardeşlerimi kutluyorum. Genç Siviller’i kutluyorum."

The bit in bold translates as "I congratulate my Revolutionary Socialist Workers Party friends". Also mentioned alongside them are "his brothers" in the Saadet Party (Islamicist), and the Büyük Birlik Party (ultranationalist)

A link can be found here.

Devrim