Species and Class Update Thread

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Fleur
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Aug 21 2014 21:01

Speciesandclass

So, you are reading this thread, not just spamming and running. Any chance you may deign to respond to any of the criticisms levelled at the claptrap you're posting up?

Also, posting up a picture of a burger in response to this drivel is a ban offence. Calling someone an ignorant shit for liking ice-cream isn't. Posting up some PETA torture porn isn't trolling, and calling someone a wanker and a cunt for declining to watch it is perfectly OK. Right.

Speciesandclass
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Aug 22 2014 19:24

I am not 'glad' you are vegan

http://speciesandclass.com/2014/08/22/i-am-not-glad-you-are-vegan/

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Serge Forward
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Aug 22 2014 20:15

And I am not glad you are still posting your shit on here.

Speciesandclass
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Aug 23 2014 09:40

Communism as Veganism

http://speciesandclass.com/2014/08/23/communism-as-veganism/

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Chilli Sauce
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Aug 23 2014 09:48
Quote:
Veganism and communism are both movements for the liberation of the oppressed which seek to undermine and overcome relations of domination and create a free world... Veganism as animal liberation is the recognition of animals not as animals but, instead, as fellow creatures, and in its more radical aspects, fellow persons.

Really?

factvalue
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Aug 23 2014 09:52

No, really not.

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Theft
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Aug 23 2014 10:12
plasmatelly wrote:
The posts have been deleted but, that was basically what it was. No idea why he started slagging me off.

Seriously what the fuck are you even going on about? I never slagged you off, called you a cop or anything, my general view of you is simply best to ignore whatever nonsense you come out with.

You really need to get over yourself, not everything is about you.

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plasmatelly
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Aug 23 2014 14:53
Theft wrote:
plasmatelly wrote:
The posts have been deleted but, that was basically what it was. No idea why he started slagging me off.

Seriously what the fuck are you even going on about? I never slagged you off, called you a cop or anything, my general view of you is simply best to ignore whatever nonsense you come out with.

You really need to get over yourself, not everything is about you.

Welcome back.

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Noah Fence
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Aug 23 2014 15:05
Quote:
You really need to get over yourself, not everything is about you.

Ironically though, this post was.
A Carly Simon moment.

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Railyon
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Aug 23 2014 16:30

Dear Theft,

I am sorry to hear you have strayed from the rightful path of no divergence. Blessed be democratic centralism, for it has exposed you as a hypocrisocialist. There is no redemption - the veganarchy has, once and for all, cast you out. Welcome to the dark side - we have tacos and bacon. You are now a right-winger. One of us. One of us.

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cresspot
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Aug 24 2014 04:12
Chilli Sauce wrote:
Quote:
Veganism and communism are both movements for the liberation of the oppressed which seek to undermine and overcome relations of domination and create a free world... Veganism as animal liberation is the recognition of animals not as animals but, instead, as fellow creatures, and in its more radical aspects, fellow persons.

Really?

Person as in a somebody.
If the question 'Can it enjoy ice cream?' is answered with a yes then to me, that ice cream eater is a person. "I ice cream therefore I person"
Who ever values others by the spectrum of ice cream flavors they are capable of enjoying? If a cow is only capapble of eating cow ice cream that doesn't mean that Gepetto can put it in coat closet while everyone else gets enjoy their banana sorbet at their leisure.

factvalue
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Aug 24 2014 09:09
Quote:
Veganism as animal liberation is the recognition of animals not as animals but, instead, as fellow creatures, and in its more radical aspects, fellow persons.

I can't think of a better definition of anthropocentrism.

Speciesandclass
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Aug 25 2014 15:27

http://speciesandclass.com/2014/08/24/could-we-form-an-anti-speciesist-a...

Could we form an anti-speciesist, anti-capitalist organization?

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Noah Fence
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Aug 25 2014 15:34
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Could we form an anti-speciesist, anti-capitalist organization?

I've no idea but I reckon it would prove pretty difficult if everyone followed your example and refused to engage in a debate about anything.

factvalue
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Aug 25 2014 22:09

Sure could we not get a little debate going eh? Go on! Would you not bat the ball back just once in a while, sure it’s only good manners? What about that previous one about animals being people? Come on, just one wee waffer-thin response to break the ice. Because I mean, on a banal level, it’s undeniable that people=animals, but if you stay on that level then people can no more take control of the direction of their futures than other animals (sure it would be ‘speciesist’ to claim otherwise). Now with so little to go on it’s hard to be certain what you think but on general principle one should never underestimate the power of denial, and then again anyone who is seriously unable to apprehend the uniqueness of human beings has already passed through denial into freakish and agonising delusion.

What is a species in your opinion, an arrangement of genes with a certain average shelf-life? Is my decision to produce fertile offspring ‘speciesist’? Would you be more in favour of interspecies relationships after the revolution, or just a wild party? How is the production of fertile offspring connected with class? If you mean something else by ‘species’, what else?

Alright I was only fucking with you, to an extent, but I assure you that I care passionately about the destruction of the Holocene. I very vaguely remember having a really bad fever in my early twenties but apparently in my delirium I wailed, howled and wept inconsolably about the fate of the natural world under capitalism. So I give a shit, as I’m sure practically everybody else on here gives a shit. I just don’t see how anything can be done about the hierarchical abuse of the planet until we sort out our own hierarchical abuse by and through the social system which is at the root of the trouble.

And I’ve met too many people who sound like your website, and secretly or openly espouse views such as those of James Lovelock:

Quote:
Humans on the Earth behave in some ways like a pathogenic organism, or like the cells of a tumour or neoplasm. We have grown in numbers and disturbance to Gaia, to the point where our presence is perceptibly disturbing… the human species is now so numerous as to constitute a serious planetary malady. Gaia is suffering from a plague of Disseminated Primatemaia, a plague of people.

What shade of deep greens would you have served old Tommy Malthus if he’d come round for dinner after that wild party? Answers on a postcard to:

An Omnivore (Homo Rapiens),
A Balcony,
A Prosthetic Environment,
The Era of Solitude

Fleur
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Aug 25 2014 22:27

Factvalue wrote

Quote:
I just don’t see how anything can be done about the hierarchical abuse of the planet until we sort out our own hierarchical abuse by and through the social system which is at the root of the trouble.

This.

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cresspot
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Aug 25 2014 23:13

As a commie I also see humanity as a plague because humanity reproduces capitalism every day, and capitalism is the negation of the world. I see combining species-informed eco-perspectives with class as a welcome integration. So to prioritize hierarchies, while it does make some sence here, is still, I believe, a false separation. And by the way factvalue I said just a little bit ago that person=somebodyness, so animals are not people, because person-ness is a different concept.

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Chilli Sauce
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Aug 25 2014 23:23
Quote:
How is the production of fertile offspring connected with class?

What a line.

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Gepetto
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Aug 25 2014 23:29

The history of all hitherto existing life is the history of species struggles.

Speciesandclass
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Aug 26 2014 00:38

Ball batted briefly back:

How is saying we can't do anything about the treatment of animals until "after the revolution" different than saying we can't do anything about [insert not explicitly class-centered issue here] until after capitalism overthrown?

factvalue
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Aug 26 2014 21:37

What, like tennis for example, how is saying we can't do anything about the tennis until after the revo different from [insert animals as if intersectionally etc] - is that what you're asking? I think I'm getting confused but I suppose I'm slightly nervous because I don't want to frighten you away again like a baby moocow gamboling into the long wavy vegan monocrops. I assure you I really wasn't saying anything of that nature, honest.

The treatment of animals is definitely part of the whole 'kyriarchy' horror show, no question but for me it's further down the list than the treatment of the disabled or children or humans of any kind by other humans in things like war or any other everyday concomitant of a truly revolting system. Or as when going to an osteopath, every visit is essential to regain complete functional realignment but I think we need to be choosing our battles and strategies with careful wisdom if we want the different parts of the organism to start cooperating in a healthy manner again, and I think that prioritising revolutionising the treatment of human beings by human beings by attacking capitalism at its weakest point - its fatal reliance on a working class - is imperative, and that the more of this kind of work we do the more it will fan out across the entire eco-social metabolism: central nervous system, spine and core musculature first, then if you want to wiggle your toes the world’s your oyster/kumquat…

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Chilli Sauce
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Aug 27 2014 08:11
Speciesandclass wrote:
Ball batted briefly back:

How is saying we can't do anything about the treatment of animals until "after the revolution" different than saying we can't do anything about [insert not explicitly class-centered issue here] until after capitalism overthrown?

So...who said that?

factvalue
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Aug 27 2014 09:56
Gepetto wrote:
The history of all hitherto existing life is the history of species struggles.

Species struggle and class struggle are not in the same category though, and competition is only one factor in life let alone in evolution; for example neo-Darwinism (genes, genes, genes) is in serious difficulties in explaining morphogenesis - why our arses are different from our elbows.

cresspot wrote:
And by the way factvalue I said just a little bit ago that person=somebodyness, so animals are not people, because person-ness is a different concept.

I don't get it. If person equals somebody and you have to be a person to be somebody, why does person-ness not equal somebody-ness? But anyway this is why we are in disagreement: you have your definitions and I have mine and for me a person is a member of the species homo sapiens, the human animals, in that there are no other kinds of animal in my list of phone contacts (if you don't include my landlord who's a fucking snake).

Speciesandclass
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Aug 27 2014 10:21

http://speciesandclass.com/2014/08/27/the-patriarchal-orientation-of-sex...

The Patriarchal Orientation of Sex, Race, Economic and Human/Nonhuman Classes

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Noah Fence
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Aug 27 2014 11:07
Speciesandclass wrote:
http://speciesandclass.com/2014/08/27/the-patriarchal-orientation-of-sex...

The Patriarchal Orientation of Sex, Race, Economic and Human/Nonhuman Classes

For fucks sake. A couple of sentences and then we're hit with another opportunity for ignoring(my choice), sneering or keyboard masturbation.

I'm starting to wonder if this guy is actually Dr. Doolittle and only talks to the animals???

snipfool
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Aug 27 2014 11:28

Good at batting the ball but not catching it... or some kinda extended metaphor like that...

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Railyon
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Aug 27 2014 11:50

By the way, you'll receive my response to 'Toward a Marxist Animalism' by the weekend. Right now it's a good five pages long, but I need to tie up some loose ends still. Maybe I should toss in a paragraph why animals do not constitute a class as the above linked article claims (since it basically ties into the question of whether animals are exploited in the Marxian sense anyway)

Speciesandclass
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Aug 27 2014 12:04

Oh, cool. Thanks Railyon. I thought you were the one who submitted Communism as Veganism. Someone from Libcom sent that.

factvalue
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Aug 27 2014 12:28
Webby wrote:
For fucks sake. A couple of sentences and then we're hit with another opportunity for ignoring(my choice), sneering or keyboard masturbation.

You leave that poor keyboard alone you big degenerate.

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Ed
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Aug 27 2014 12:42

Just out of interest: what's the demographic split between human animals and non-human animals in your collective? When I was in Solfed the group was made up almost entirely of white men, which we thought was an issue for a group dedicated to anti-racism and anti-sexism (this seems to have improved a bit since I've left, even if still far from ideal).. does Species and Class face similar demographic issues?

(Sarky tone aside, this is my response as to why dealing with 'speciesism' 'before the revolution' is different from dealing with racism or sexism)..

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