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Socialist/Anarchist sections in football teams?Besiktas-Carsi

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gypsy
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Nov 24 2009 18:50
Socialist/Anarchist sections in football teams?Besiktas-Carsi

Devrim and mikail firtinaci is their much truth to the bbc report? . I had no idea about Besiktas and their Carsi section.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/8376619.stm

"Fans are introduced to ideas like anarchism and socialism that don't get an airing in traditional media, let alone most football stadia."

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Nov 25 2009 15:37

According to this interview, there's a firm of antifa Arsenal-supporting skins in Kiev, which sounds even weirder. neutral (Scroll down a bit less than halfway, to the bit where the interviewer asks him about SHARP and RASH).

gypsy
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Nov 25 2009 16:43
Farce wrote:
According to this interview, there's a firm of antifa Arsenal-supporting skins in Kiev, which sounds even weirder. neutral (Scroll down a bit less than halfway, to the bit where the interviewer asks him about SHARP and RASH).

That sounds like the wierdest shit ever. I guess Arsenal play in red, plus their team is pretty multiracial.

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Nov 26 2009 09:20

Personally, I am very sceptical about the whole left-wing football teams thing. Football clubs are businesses, and so in some countries are their supporters clubs. Çarşı (pronounced 'charshe'), for example, is a massive sports clothing mark.

The Çarşi slogan 'Çarşi is against everything' is often sung like this "Çarşı, Atatürk hariç her şeye karşı", against everything but Ataturk (and there is a big picture of him on their website). In addition they stated publicly that the @ (see image) on their logo wasn't connected to anarchism.
I don't think that is that left a thing and that the imagery is just a part of a group identity thing.

In Ankara, for example, there are three football teams, one associated with the left, one the right, and one Islamicists, who are satisfyingly, at the moment, bottom with no points. It isn't that clear a thing though. When I go, which is only about half a dozen times a season these days, I go to the 'fascist' one, but lots of people I know who go their consider themselves to be socialists.

The group itself dissolved itself a few years back. Some of them did very well for themselves. The clothing company is very successful, and Alen Markaryan, the main chantleader, now owns a restaurant and writes newspaper columns.

Devrim

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mikail firtinaci
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Nov 26 2009 11:20

"carsi" comes from a central bazaar area in the european side of the city, very close to besktas stadium and where fans are gathered. Most carsi group are small shop owners people close to the area. They have some anarchist members. However in turkey there is not a general "working class team" v.s. "burgeoisie team" thing as I believe it exist in England. In turkey it is something lefty intellectauls attributed to the football, after mostly 90's. Usually -I believe same as elsewhere- the fan groups are machoist, nationalist and nihilist violance groups in search of a kind of identity. That is my perception of course. There are some anarchists I know who are "normal" people but attach some crazy symphaties towards some football teams.

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Nov 26 2009 11:47
mikail firtinaci wrote:
However in turkey there is not a general "working class team" v.s. "burgeoisie team" thing as I believe it exist in England.

No, it doesn't exist there either. There is the remant of things about religious sectarianism, but although it still thrives in Scotland, I think most young people today would be pushed to say which club is catholic, and which protestant in say Manchester, or Liverpool.

Devrim

martinh
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Nov 26 2009 12:58

I am always amazed by anarchists critical of almost all corporate structures, yet happy to suspend critical faculties when it comes to football.

In England, people support their local team or one of the Big 4. There is sometimes class identity mixed up in it, but all teams have cross class support (even Millwall).

Regards,

Martin

gypsy
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Nov 26 2009 15:23
Devrim wrote:
mikail firtinaci wrote:
However in turkey there is not a general "working class team" v.s. "burgeoisie team" thing as I believe it exist in England.

No, it doesn't exist there either. There is the remant of things about religious sectarianism, but although it still thrives in Scotland, I think most young people today would be pushed to say which club is catholic, and which protestant in say Manchester, or Liverpool.

Devrim

In scotland Celtic(catholics) Rangers (protestants) -mostly spill over from northern irish politics.

In england in liverpool to a lesser extent than in scotland- Liverpool F.C (protestant-i think) and Everton (Catholic).

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Nov 26 2009 15:30
allybaba wrote:
In scotland Celtic(catholics) Rangers (protestants) -mostly spill over from northern irish politics.

In england in liverpool to a lesser extent than in scotland- Liverpool F.C (protestant-i think) and Everton (Catholic).

It is still alive in Scotland. You have the Liverpool teams the wrong way round though.

Wiki wrote:
Everton Football Club have a long and detailed history. The club's roots lie in an English Methodist congregation called New Connexion founded by Guto Sion Jones in 1865, who decided to build a new chapel in the Liverpool area in 1868.

Liverpool was a split (sounds like left politics) from Everton later with Catholics involved.

The same thing is also there with the Manchester clubs. I doubt whether anyone much younger than me can remember, which is which though.

Devrim

gypsy
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Nov 26 2009 16:41

The rivalry stems from Liverpool's formation after an internal dispute with Everton officials and the owners of Anfield, the ground Everton were using at the time. Religious differences have been cited as a division, with Everton usually placed on the Catholic side;[51] however, both teams were founded with Methodist involvement, somewhat undermining the notion of a Catholic–Protestant split.[51] from wikipedia. You are right Dev. I apoligise.

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Nov 26 2009 22:50

I've heard it said that Everton traditionally had the Catholic support, some of it from the Irish diaspora.

I think whilst Martin is right, if you do like football and like it played well, then it's going to be difficult to ignore the professional side. Even fan initiatives like AFC Wimbledon and FC United have the advantage of mass support far greater than other clubs in non league and money; AFC have constantly fought clubs leagues above them for players (and got them) and in 2007, paid what is probably the league record for a transfer. But ultimately, it's possible (and better) to be critically supportive, like of any aspect of culture, rather than entirely dismissive, no?

Farce, a football fan from Kiev who supports Arsenal probably supports Arsenal Kiev, not the Gooners.

Devrim's wrong, there are left wing clubs like Livorno for instance. But as for anarchist clubs, I don't think they really exist apart from historical ones like the Argentinian lot. Things like Treviso players blackening their faces with shoe polish in solidarity with a team mate being racially abused by their own fans (who also held a banner stating "We don't want non white players playing for us") is far more impressive than a self proclamation of politics. And for those that fancy the individualistic approach, there's always Volker Ippig, professional goalkeeper for St. Pauli who liked living in squats and naturally defending them from coppers.

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Nov 26 2009 22:57
molly0000000s wrote:
Farce, a football fan from Kiev who supports Arsenal probably supports Arsenal Kiev, not the Gooners.

Oh, that makes a lot more sense, although it's less interesting.

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Nov 26 2009 23:26
Devrim wrote:
The same thing is also there with the Manchester clubs. I doubt whether anyone much younger than me can remember, which is which though.

Devrim

Often, team in blue = Huns, team in red = taigs.

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Nov 27 2009 00:34
molly0000000s wrote:
Devrim's wrong, there are left wing clubs like Livorno for instance.

I am not saying that there aren't clubs associated with the left. I am saying that the idea of 'left wing' businesses is pretty irrelevant to the politics of most people on here. In some countries there are left and right wing Mafiosi, but we don't think that there is anything socialist or revolutionary about them.

Devrim

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Nov 27 2009 00:35
notch8 wrote:
Devrim wrote:
The same thing is also there with the Manchester clubs. I doubt whether anyone much younger than me can remember, which is which though.

Devrim

Often, team in blue = Huns, team in red = taigs.

Yes smile

Devrim

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flaneur
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Nov 27 2009 09:31
Devrim wrote:
molly0000000s wrote:
Devrim's wrong, there are left wing clubs like Livorno for instance.

I am not saying that there aren't clubs associated with the left. I am saying that the idea of 'left wing' businesses is pretty irrelevant to the politics of most people on here. In some countries there are left and right wing Mafiosi, but we don't think that there is anything socialist or revolutionary about them.

Devrim

Most people on here would think their politics are neither left nor right though.

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Devrim
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Nov 27 2009 10:03

Exactly, I think the same goes for businesses like football clubs.
Devrim

vanilla.ice.baby
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Nov 30 2009 16:41
notch8 wrote:
Devrim wrote:
The same thing is also there with the Manchester clubs. I doubt whether anyone much younger than me can remember, which is which though.

Devrim

Often, team in blue = Huns, team in red = taigs.

Except in Liverpool.

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Entdinglichung
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Nov 30 2009 17:37

meanwhile at Socialist Unity ... about the match Hapoel-Celtic on Wednesday

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Devrim
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Dec 1 2009 08:05
vanilla.ice.baby wrote:
notch8 wrote:
Devrim wrote:
The same thing is also there with the Manchester clubs. I doubt whether anyone much younger than me can remember, which is which though.

Devrim

Often, team in blue = Huns, team in red = taigs.

Except in Liverpool.

I don't think so. Everton comes from Methodism. Liverpool split from them and picked up the taigs later. The point is that nobody even seems sure nowadays.

Devrim

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Dec 4 2009 10:43

http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/2009/12/stuc-looking-for-rentademo.php

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Dec 4 2009 14:24

It'd be nice if that article explained the situation instead of assuming the reader was already familiar with it. Still, having googled it for context, that shit is fucked up. At the risk of sounding incredibly naive, surely the fucking trade unions should have something better to do with their time and resources? No?

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Jun 2 2010 07:13
revol68 wrote:
Oddly in the 70's differing sections of he Stretford End would chant republican and loyalist slogans and songs back and forth at each other.

I never heard them.

Devrim

Werther De Goethe
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Jun 2 2010 12:44
revol68 wrote:
Oddly in the 70's differing sections of he Stretford End would chant republican and loyalist slogans and songs back and forth at each other.

I was on the Stretford end from the late 60s and the chants were simply 'Celtic' & 'Rangers'.

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jambo1
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Jun 3 2010 09:36

my family in liverpool are a mix of everton and liverpool fans and i was always under the impression that everton were the catholic team altho its not so clear cut as glasgow.

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playinghob
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Jun 16 2010 19:42

I think it was fairly common in the 60's and 70's for groups of fans to chant the Rangers/Celtic thing. They certainly did in the Fulwell End at Sunderland. The catholic contingent of fans, who drank in the catholic clubs, and took trips up to Glasgow for big matches, would chant Celtic. Those who favoured Rangers would respond. Even to this day coaches travel to Glasgow for matches to see both teams from Sunderland. Also back in the 70's it was not uncommon to see Sunderland fans sporting blue and green scarves denoting their sectarian preference.

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playinghob
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Jun 20 2010 21:29

Dare i mention St Pauli.....

http://www.freedompress.org.uk/news/2010/05/16/fc-st-pauli-pirates-of-the-league/#more-2512

They also have a big Celtic connection......

http://www.altnation.com/forums/football/94409-why-celtic-st-pauli.html