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Prince is dead

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factvalue
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Apr 22 2016 16:47

Would you go so far as to say that RandB has joined the other side? Is looking down on 'commercial' music classist? Do you think there's something in the argument that 'movements' like modernism were the response of bourgeois elites panicked over the prols catching up with their exclusive artistic culture, "quick Virginia, call T.S. Eliot, Pablo Picasso and Arnold Schoenberg and get them to make it incomprehensible again, the great unwashed are here and we simply must show them they're not one of us!!"? Can music be thought of like this? And can anyone lend me a fiver?

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Ed
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Apr 22 2016 16:57
S. Artesian wrote:
Nobody played guitar, sang, and danced like him.

Or played basketball, apparently..

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Ed
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Apr 22 2016 17:08

Seriously tho, skip 1 min into this video and if you don't like it then quite frankly you're fucked..

edit: video fixed for Ed

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Apr 22 2016 17:22

Factvalue #32

I have been told the origins of artistic bohemia and modernism was largely due to the production of large numbers of artists after the great expansion of art colleges/courses and the resultant unemployment this produced. These young artists rebelled against the academy system because the older artists refused them entry, to protect their own elite position, and of course access to their wealthy patrons. Abstract art was born partly due to photography challenging the painterly artifice.

The only musical example similar, that I know of, would be the birth of bebop, which was also due to alienating social and economic factors.

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Noah Fence
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Apr 22 2016 17:23

Unsurprisingly, previously unseen footage of our hero has already started to surface...

http://youtu.be/M_1ZXYmghhs

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Apr 22 2016 17:27

Ed - either that's a very silly post or I'm fucked.

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Tarwater
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Apr 22 2016 18:58

Edit

infektfm
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Apr 22 2016 19:11

I kinda regret framing his death the way I did in the OP. Maybe he wasn't as shitty of a person as was impressed upon me. He just seemed kinda egomaniacal and sexist at times.

I take great inspiration from his music, though. He was one of the main artists that made me want to pick up the guitar, and as a amateur producer I view his work as a benchmark in using production as an instrument of its own

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Noah Fence
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Apr 22 2016 20:36
Quote:
I take great inspiration from his music, though. He was one of the main artists that made me want to pick up the guitar, and as a amateur producer I view his work as a benchmark in using production as an instrument of its own

Virtuoso guitarists like Jimmy Hendrix had the precise opposite effect on me. The beginners level strumming and picking of early Velvet Underground made me pick up the blasted thing. I joined a band probably within a month of picking up and was soon gigging and being really involved in music. Simple unpretentious musicianship is so much more congruous to the expression of emotion for most lyrical content than someone hellbent on demonstrating their technical brilliance. Obviously I speak in general terms here.
I've since come to appreciate accomplished musicians, for instance, Jonny Greenwood is an incredible guitarist but it's always understated and subtle. So evocative and emotive I could weep with joy, put Cream on and I'll weep with anguish.
My favourite music is almost always something that can be made by anyone as long as they have the idea, the imagination, that's why Velvet Underground were so amazing - the ideas were there and they didn't have to practice for years to become proficient while the ideas faded and turned to shit. Same with dance music although that does require somewhat more technical ability. If you have the ideas it's easy to find someone that has the know how. You may not play a note but it's still all your work.

Sorry Fleur, looks like I'm as big a musical wank off merchant as those I was condemning earlier!

Zeronowhere
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Apr 22 2016 21:38
Fleur wrote:
Honestly, nobody past adolescence really cares what kind of music anybody likes and your dislike of Prince is no skin off anyone's nose but generally it's a bit bad taste to put the boot in to people who are genuinely upset that someone who's music meant a lot to them has died.

Except for their own, presumably. Rushing into things there might be problematic. It seems strange to wall people off such that they can make evaluations of music, but also give these evaluations no validity and grant as much to anyone else or any other music.

Of course, music was not somehow magically separate from the social dynamic of the age, unless this dynamic is being denied in favour of listeners' atomisation, and hence it might well be relevant. That is what R&BR was talking about by then, albeit in a limited field.

It's not a funeral, if they wished to praise their estimation of Prince's fans and their feelings rather than the artist then they could go elsewhere. It's a socialist/anarchist forum, though, so they might be more inclined to mourn people's adolescence.

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Anyone who makes their living as a musician makes commercial music, just some people sell more than others.

Just some people are 'better' at making commercial music than others, while others intentionally diverge from the 'commercial music' which they are supposed to be trying to make. People don't make obscure heavy metal expecting to be the next pop sensation, just for that reason, sadly. In that sense they are being intentionally obtuse vis-à-vis the overall system, rather than following its musical dictates or reasons for production. The problem comes in, of course, as soon as in 'making commercial music' they then have to actually make something quite different, and they would not then be able to.

Making pop music like all other pop musicians and this going harmoniously merely implied harmony with the system, and otherwise this would be an awkward and unaesthetic combination which would be recognised as such. It's likely that they generally weren't liked for socialist reasons, but rather catered to capitalist views in listeners along with capital instead. This might have been unaesthetic, depending on your views on each.

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If music is commercially successful it just means that it makes a lot of people happy, not just a select few.

Yes, but you need not agree.

Unfortunately, they might only care about such things, rather than the music itself. It is possible. This would at least create a certain tendency in music which was more in harmony with the capitalist system.

Quote:
Better than all that is the fact that Prince made you want to dance. If that's not important, then I don't know what is when it comes to rock and roll.

If it's played backwards, it might make you want to die - ? Just like Prince playing guitar better than anyone - apparently, and obviously he had to be promoted in such terms - in the past might lead to a similar course of action to most who bother with the instrument.

In this he was perhaps unnecessary, of course. Jesus was already the king of the dance settee, reportedly, and was renowned for their salvific abilities compared to others at the time, who as a result consigned him to poverty and killed him, so long as his ministry lasted.

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Apr 22 2016 21:37

Insane clown posse, or International Communist Party?

You be the judge. Faygo.

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jef costello
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Apr 22 2016 21:49
Noah Fence wrote:
Unsurprisingly, previously unseen footage of our hero has already started to surface...

http://youtu.be/M_1ZXYmghhs

He was notoriouis for suing the shit out of anyone who put anything unauthorised online.

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Apr 22 2016 22:01

I like how the Velvet Underground and unpretentiousness are used in the same paragraph, intentionally.

fidel gastro
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Apr 22 2016 22:34
Fleur wrote:
red and black riot

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For many such as myself, Prince was one of those people that represented awful commercial 'music' and an awful commercial culture. Problem is, now he's dead, we will have to put up with his stupid face and shitty 'music' everywhere we go. There, I said it. How does not liking Prince make me unfun? Thats ridiculous.

What are you, 12 and sneering at the kids reading Smash Hits because you only like bands nobody has ever heard of? Honestly, nobody past adolescence really cares what kind of music anybody likes and your dislike of Prince is no skin off anyone's nose but generally it's a bit bad taste to put the boot in to people who are genuinely upset that someone who's music meant a lot to them has died. People get upset when a favourite musician dies because the music was a back drop to their lives and is incorporated into their memories. I listened to him, watched him, danced to him and fucked to him and generally Prince is one of those artists that took me to a happy place. Your schadenfreude that he's dead and you're happy that a lot of people without your musical cool are sad is just a little bloody infantile. Yeah, he was dead mediocre. He played 37 instruments and cities all over the world turned purple and were filled with dance parties last night so people could celebrate his shitty music and his stupid face.*

Anyone who makes their living as a musician makes commercial music, just some people sell more than others. I'm an unashamed lover of commercial music, my days of being a cooler than thou musical snob went a long time ago. If music is commercially successful it just means that it makes a lot of people happy, not just a select few. And right now you're about 2 minutes away from my lecture on why Nicki Minaj is clearly a goddess.

*sorry, I meant wonderful music and beautiful face.

Fleur- I said awful commercial music, not just commercial. By the way, alot of people like Roy Chubby Brown but does that mean he's a good comedian? I don't think so. Alot of people like the Bee Gees and Duran Duran, doesn't mean their music is good. How populist do you want to be? Nicki Minaj? Goddess? Really? That says much about you.

factvalue
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Apr 22 2016 22:17

Zeronowhere wrote:

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In this he was perhaps unnecessary, of course. Jesus was already the king of the dance settee, reportedly, and was renowned for their salvific abilities compared to others at the time, who as a result consigned him to poverty and killed him, so long as his ministry lasted.

Stop posting and just finish your drugs.

I was once dexterous in a transparent box looking at an old limit which began signalling to a symbol of it at an hour when it, capitalism struggled to be born, but in a dark world of other previous abstractions singing to an aging cabbage outside a phone box nearby.

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Juan Conatz
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Apr 22 2016 22:35

There were many thousands of people downtown last night around First Ave. Kinda regret not going, but had to work today.

Cause of death is still unknown, but there's rumors that he overdosed on prescription opiates last week.

I can't speak about other places, but at least here, he's such a big deal, because he was one of the few really famous people who came from Minneapolis. Also, although he no longer lived in the city, he still lived in Minnesota, in a large complex called Paisly Park out in the suburbs. I keep hearing variations of this from people here: "Even though he became famous, he never left here." I think that means something to people in the Midwest more than in other places, maybe.

Minneapolis used to have a soul/r&b/funk scene, that while often being dertvitive, was respectable and put out some, pretty good, if mostly ignored music. A few years ago, a local record label tracked down some of the earlier parts of this scene and released it. Another label collected a bunch of tracks from around the time Prince emerged and released a small book and album around the same time.

With this latter album, I have kind of a funny story. At the last job I worked at, we were allowed to hook up our phones to the radio and play what we wanted. I usually made large Spotify mixes to last the day. Mostly hip-hop, soul, r&b and funk. One of the songs off that Purple Snow album above had a singer that one of my coworkers swore he recognized. Turns out this singer, who had recorded this track on Purple Snow around the time I was born, still played music, and my coworker, who plays the drums, was in a practicing band with him for a time!

You hear a lot of stories like that. Since Minneapolis isn't that big, any scene is going to touch and involve a larger percentage of residents than if it was in Chicago or New York. It seems like there is a fair amount of people who have a family member who was involved in this scene, and so had some relation to Prince.

Personally, I never really super got into Prince, although I've been meaning to go through his discography for years. I remember he did the soundtrack to the first Batman movie, which is probably when I first became aware of him. He sort of picked up the torch from Parliament, a group I was obsessed with in my early 20s, and advanced funk into his own thing, which I respect. As a longtime hip-hop head, I've learned to respect what came before because so much of that is the foundation that hip-hop is built on. Anyway...

Fleur
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Apr 22 2016 22:43

Zeronowhere:

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Anything that upsets his fans makes me happy and what could be better than him dying?

Absolutely. And the above is a perfect example of of an in depth socialist critique of popular music.

And given that I don't give two hoots about the structural position of popular music within the capitalist system, or whatever, to Noah:

We're probably looking at this from the same angle from an entirely different perspective. It is because I played music is why I value talent and musicianship so highly. I got my first guitar when I was 7. I was electrified at 13. Music was pretty much all I did and all that was important and where I went to to escape. When I see someone doing something so brilliantly and with such apparent ease that I couldn't possibly do with all the practise in the world and if I spent every waking minute trying to master technical skills, that is awe inspiring. A difference between a good musician and a genius talent is the like difference between a poster from Walmart and a Caravaggio. DIY culture is all well and good and it does have a democratizing effect but there's still room to recognize the artists of outstanding ability. You don't have to like them, there have been some outstanding guitarists but I don't like their music. That doesn't detract from their ability just because it's not my cup of tea.

I don't have many regrets really, I don't see the point but that I don't play anymore is one of those. I had a disastrous injury which meant I had to have my wrist in plaster for nearly a year and when it came out it was clear that it was going to be starting from scratch and it would never be the same again. If I couldn't play properly, I didn't want to do it at all. I think that's a real shame now. However, when someone can really play, with virtuosity, I'm blown away. It's like standing in the Uffizi being struck down with Stendhal syndrome, or watching an acting performance which shakes you to the core. It's a buzz and people get their highs in different ways.

And as far as I can see, my taste in music has fuck all to do with politics, although some people can and will construct political theory about just about anything. Not everything I do for pleasure needs to be analyzed from an anarchist perspective. How dull would that be? I honestly don't care what other people think of my music taste and I think it's completely ridiculous that grown adults will pull the I'm cooler than you musical snobbery card out of the deck. To put it another way, act you age not your shoe size wink

Fleur
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Apr 22 2016 23:08

Chumbawumba?

GTFO.

edit: No, I don't like the Bee Gees or Duran Duran. Nor do I like Celine Dion, Madonna or Bruce Springsteen or a multitude of other people who are popular but that doesn't make me the arbiter of good taste or make me feel the need to shit on other people because I hold the personal opinion that their music isn't good. This is mainly because I am a grown up and I don't actually care about other people's taste. It's very subjective and some of the things you've posted up as your favourite tunes are the sort of things I would chew my own leg off to avoid being in a room listening to them. However, I do feel that taking delight in other people being saddened by a death is a shitty and childish position. There's always that one guy...actually there's always a lot of people - like the ones who wouldn't shut up moaning about Star Wars at Christmas, even though there was no reason for them to go and see it. Pissing and moaning about other people who like something they don't. Personally I find it incomprehensible that people lose their shit over a bunch of blokes running around a field after a ball but it's not like anyone is forcing me to do it.
Let people have their moment when they're upset. It passes soon enough.

As for Nicki, she's got amazing flow, she can really sing, she's smart and funny and sassy and you can dance your ass off to her. On top of that she's totally gorgeous. What's not to love?

And as for you, it says a lot about you that you feel that somehow you need to be mean to people who are feeling a loss and tout your superiority about your taste in music. It says an awful lot.

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gram negative
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Apr 22 2016 23:04

um, newsflash, capital totally works with both mass production/consumption and specialized production and consumption within subcultures - adorno was wrong.

harry partch and prince and deathspell omega have all been affected by the market

EDIT: that purple snow comp is KILLER. i'll have to check out the other one

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Apr 22 2016 23:23
Juan Conatz wrote:
I like how the Velvet Underground and unpretentiousness are used in the same paragraph, intentionally.

Ha! That's not a bad joke at all! I could challenge it but it deserves its 15 minutes!

Jeff - did you actually watch the video?

factvalue
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Apr 22 2016 23:35

All of the arts have to provide a faithful account of reality in some form if they are going to connect with us and create the kind of immediacy of experience that we ask of them, which is the predominance of feeling over the deadening abstraction of the rigid, pragmatic everyday world which narrows our emotions as much as it narrows our minds. Great artists are not great the more technically incompetent they are, it is not a requirement that they be mad or childlike or visionaries or conform to any corny mass media models. On the contrary, if they have great talent they almost definitely command great knowledge of the facts of the inner world. But they don't succeed in communicating their message by cutting off their legs and using political or other ideological crutches. They're not trying to be good and correct. Music is the greatest of the nonverbal arts, those forms best equipped to connect us with unconceptualised experiences of the ethical-aesthetic-sensual-contemplative variety and liberate us from formulaic limitations of the calculating ego and its worldly transactions which is still present in literature, which is relatively better suited to the expression of our instrumental and conceptual side.

I was completely addicted to music for a couple of decades but I used to fight a lot and had some teeth knocked out and cracked but I'm getting that way again now that I've become used to the front denture, sounding like my old self all of a sudden. As a teenager I used to take weeks off school and go to the rehearsal rooms in the school of music in the city centre and play all day long and then go to lessons in the evening. In all honesty, I was very fucking good, and the better I got technically, the more the music affected me. We don't need less technique and more soul, we need more technique for expressing matters of the soul.

Zeronowhere
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Apr 23 2016 00:01
factvalue wrote:
Zeronowhere wrote:

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In this he was perhaps unnecessary, of course. Jesus was already the king of the dance settee, reportedly, and was renowned for their salvific abilities compared to others at the time, who as a result consigned him to poverty and killed him, so long as his ministry lasted.

Stop posting and just finish your drugs.

I'm not on drugs. Nor do I like them.

Many people would enjoy being on drugs, though, and it might even save their life. So a strange place to make the accusation.

Quote:
I was once dexterous in a transparent box looking at an old limit which began signalling to a symbol of it at an hour when it, capitalism struggled to be born, but in a dark world of other previous abstractions singing to an aging cabbage outside a phone box nearby.

They are very different, it must be noted.

Reminiscent of Engels' quite coherent, "The thing [calculus] has taken such a hold of me that it not only goes round my head all day, but last week in a dream I gave a chap my shirt-buttons to differentiate, and he ran off with them," except with an unwelcome tinge of a more charitable Erwin Schrödinger. Call it Schopenhauer-esque, then.

Quote:
But they don't succeed in communicating their message by cutting off their legs and using political or other ideological crutches.

Very much like Schopenhauer, but a questionable thing to take issue with in the context. Clearly these 'crutches' do play a part in history and have a place in it quite unlike these 'artists,' who would retire from it to appeal to those of their 'time' and encourage the life they lead. I suppose that I could allow for being accused of being of drugs for discussing politics, though, and this seems to ultimately be a compliment, if a convoluted one.

factvalue
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Apr 23 2016 00:01

Zeronowhere wrote:

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I'm not on drugs. Nor do I like them.

Yes of course. Meanwhile, over on the Hegel thread:

The Pidgeon wrote:

Quote:
I've been doing drugs today.

to which

Zeronowhere wrote:

Quote:
I'm trying to resist the temptation by writing words. It seems to be working.

Only smoke, not fire, it must be noted.

Zeronowhere
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Apr 23 2016 00:04
factvalue wrote:
Only smoke, not fire, it must be noted.

In the sense of lacking desire, perhaps. So was this an impromptu fire drill?

factvalue
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Apr 23 2016 00:07

Were you referring to the brother of Erwin Schrödinger, who was an only child?

Zeronowhere
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Apr 23 2016 00:21
factvalue wrote:
Were you referring to the brother of Erwin Schrödinger, who was an only child?

If they had a brother, it would probably be Stalin.

factvalue
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Apr 23 2016 00:28

Do you mean big Ernst Stalin, who owns a wave machine off the Old Kent Road? Has a sister in Hilbert Space?

factvalue
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Apr 23 2016 00:30

Ones and zeros eh? Bit polarised?

Zeronowhere
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Apr 23 2016 01:13
factvalue wrote:
Ones and zeros eh? Bit polarised?

They wouldn't be if there were no religion.

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Chilli Sauce
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Apr 23 2016 05:25
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Alot of people like the Bee Gees

Man, early Bee Gees were good. Try this one on for size:

Anyway, I can't say I was ever a Prince fan, but he was still miles better than fucking Michael Jackson. Yeah, that's right. wink