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My friend is a conspiracy theorist - what should I do?

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georgestapleton's picture
georgestapleton
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Apr 6 2011 02:38
My friend is a conspiracy theorist - what should I do?

Honest question.

My best friend from secondary school who I see maybe once or twice a year now has become a conspiracy theorist. My only contact with him these days is through facebook. And he is posting stuff from the Zeitgeist people quite often and his status updates mention the 'new world order' quite frequently. A few weeks ago he even put up a David Icke video and when some of his friends told him that was crazy he defended it.

He was never that into politics before. So when we 13/14/15 I'd have talked to him a lot about politics and he'd have agreed with me somewhat. But really his politics were generally on the level of Christy Moore and Luke Kelly songs. A lot of his friends are in Sinn Fein, a few are around Republican Sinn Fein and a few are around Youth Defence (a catholic extreme anti-abortion).

I kind of feel like I should do or say something. I don't want to slag him off because I don't think that'd achieve anything. I don't really want to spend loads of time debating him on facebook. Is there a short cut to turning people from conspiracy theory nonsense to something a bit more grounded? Like is there any good documentary or short book or essay that deals with this stuff?

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Khawaga
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Apr 6 2011 03:13

Depends on how "deep" into it he is. If he's at point of posting Icke videos he might be a goner. I've had some conspiracy nuts for friends and even when some of us stages sort of an intervention, all based on pointing out the "logic" behind conspiracies, it did not work. Mind you, this guy also believed in all conspiracies and that they're all linked to the Illuminati. One of them, however, did have a personal epiphany and just realized it was all bull all of a sudden. So I guess this is not helpful at all.

Mike Harman
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Apr 6 2011 03:23

I've also had mates who were into this stuff (but nowhere near as much). Don't know if it got anywhere, but I generally used to argue that conspiracy theories are a big distraction from all the real shit that's going on all the time, that doesn't need a conspiracy theory 'cos it's built in.

If he's quite far gone, you could try arguing that conspiracy theories are themselves a conspiracy wink

Try to persuade him to read Capital?

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Khawaga
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Apr 6 2011 04:13
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Don't know if it got anywhere, but I generally used to argue that conspiracy theories are a big distraction from all the real shit that's going on all the time, that doesn't need a conspiracy theory 'cos it's built in.

I tried that line, didn't work at all. Lol, they probably thought I was part of the cospiracy...

Samotnaf
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Apr 6 2011 06:06

I've got an anarchist friend who's into conspiracy theories, some of which are true, but some just ridiculous (eg the earthquakes in Haiti and Chile were deliberately created by the powers-that-be; that a car accident he was in was not such an "accident"). I reckon the basis of it is his isolation living in the country with a deteriorating relationship with his partner and mother of his kids, plus some genuine hostility from the local gendarmes and farmers. Also, he's a very critical member of the CNT (which the State must know about), which locally at least is very authoritarian and manipulative - so he's isolated amongst so-called friends. So he retreats into internet-world, taking on board a lot of the conspiracy theories circulating there. Fortunately, he can talk interestingly about the class struggle, ecological things and other stuff, so he's not in the same mind-set as your friend.

There's a little piece here - from over 30 years ago - from Chris Shutes - which is still interesting (haven't time to sort out what's pertinent and what's not):

Quote:
The ideology of conspiracy reflects in the crudest form the powerless effort to exorcise in one blind swoop the mediations by which Power actually functions. It takes the image of the State at its word-or rather, at its word of decades ago (and which was largely bluster even then). In practice, the CIA has mucked up almost every major effort at manipulation it has tried in the last fifteen years.[3] But the CIA's brutalizing power - thanks mostly to the press and the tattered remains of the Left - has never been greater. Each new mistake the CIA makes, each new scandal concerning it, each new exposure about it reaffirms with every word the stupefication of the individual in the face of the power of specialists, the specialists of power. The unspoken, but all the more totalitarian message is this: history exists, but goes on over your heads and always will - and that's that.
Like the cult which consolidates - in the cult itself and in its Leader as locus of the cult's alien coherence - all the mediations between the individual and society, conspiracy ideology becomes a strategy which mediates all of reality. For the believer, the clouds rain conspiracy, the sunshine nourishes it. Its favorite climate is fog, the element of confusion, where secrets are wrapped in a nebulous environment that animates mundanity. Facts are relevant only as details in the landscape which jive or don't jive with what the believer wants to see. The same people who bitch about the CIA/FBI/State Department not intervening in Guyana (even in the face of the accurate government response that intervention would have been illegal) would have been the first to bitch if the CIA/FBI/State Department had intervened. Conspiracy ideology does not set out to demonstrate the real motive forces behind human practice (including the actual role, if any, of conspiracies within the development of events), but rather takes the conspiracy as beginning and end. The notion itself of conspiracy constitutes the totality of its substance.
Conspiracy ideology is a quintessential reflection in ideas of commodity production: each new detail at once creates the need for more details and confirms the value of all previous investigation (consumption). Each detail is a commodity in and of itself. The goal-discovery-is always a letdown, a pageant of bureaucratic tedium. The process is everything.
Conspiracy ideology is modernist to the extent that it makes interpretation participatory. The specialist is not the person best able to interpret the evidence, but the person who uncovers it. The interpretation is left to mutilated subjectivity. Everyone is invited to inject his own banal experience and paranoid reaction to it. Why did the cop stop my car? Why have I never won on a lottery ticket? Why did my dishwasher break down? In the past, the materia prima of what is now the raw material of conspiracy ideology was known as gossip. Today, in large point due to the proliferation of the alienated "feminine point of view," gossip is socialized. The abstraction from utterly petty activity, from which traditional gossip draws its inspiration, is scarcely noticed: the most ouf-of-the-way old maid has seen her existence invaded by the spectacle to the point where the image of the State appears no less mundane than the story of the neighbors' latest fight or the frequency with which the people upstairs fuck.
[3] The much vaunted exception, Chile, is used by leftists to conceal the major issue: that Allende assured the success of the coup that overthrew him by disarming the workers, and that the workers' downfall was their willingness to tolerate a so-called socialist State whose sanctity assured that events transpired at a level out of their control.

ajjohnstone
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Apr 6 2011 10:18
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"The numbers 3,7, 9,11,13 39 and any multiple of these numbers have special meaning to the Illuminati. Notice that the Bilderberg Group has a core of 39 members who are broken into 3 groups of 13 members in each group. Notice that the core of 39 answers to the 13 who make up the Policy Committee. Take special notice that the 13 members of the Policy Committee answer to the Round Table of Nine. You know that the original number of states in the United States of America was 13. The Constitution has 7 Articles and was signed by 39 members of the Constitutional Convention. The United States was born on July 4, 1776. July is the 7th month of the year. Add 7 (for July) and 4 and you have 11; 1+7+7+6 =21, which is a multiple of 3 and 7. Add 2+1 and you get 3. Look at the numbers in 1776 and you see two 7s and a 6, which is a multiple of 3. Coincidence, you say?" - William Cooper

Conspiracy theorists take the view that such a complex organism as modern world society must be controlled from the top – someone, somewhere must be pulling the strings. For instance, unfamiliar with the analysis of Marxian economics, they are yet to realise that at the heart of the capitalist economy is a genuine “anarchy of production” based on ruthless competition, where firms produce goods with only profit in mind and not the needs of other firms or the limits for their particular market – and without an overall external controlling force. This particular blind spot in their conspiracists' perspective can lead them to make ridiculous, unsupported claims like the following, quite typical of its kind

Quote:
"In 1929, the Brotherhood [Illuminati] bankers crashed the Wall Street stock-market and caused the Great Depression. From this problem came the solution, the 'New Deal' economic package offered by Roosevelt which won him the Presidential election of 1933. The 'New Deal' was a replica of the economic package offered by Hitler to the German people to solve their manufactured economic problems . . . Soon afterwards, with the American economy now completely under Brotherhood control, Roosevelt put their symbol, the pyramid and all-seeing eye, on the dollar bill. He was saying to the American people 'Gotch-yer'” - David Icke

Many have a feeling of helplessness in the face of uncontrollable forces – in which conspiracy theories can flourish. Not just conspiracy theories, but other attempts to give meaning to a situation where people feel they have no control over what happens to them such as religion (old and new age), gambling (Lady Luck) and astrology (its all in the stars). These amount to attempts to make some sort of sense of a situation where people know they have no control over what happens to them and want to understand what's happening to them and why. They find it easier to think that these forces are personal; in other words, they personalise the Market and you have some shadowy group – financiers, the Jews, the Illuminati – controlling the world and manipulating events. Conspiracy theorists can’t offer an adequate explanation of what’s going on it the world. What is particularly unfortunate about conspiracy theories is not that they foster a view of the world as hopelessly in thrall to some shadowy elite with god-like power, because this is largely true. What it incorrectly encourages is the much more damaging idea that this elite is actually much cleverer than the rest of us. The central mistake of conspiracy theorists is the notion that anyone is really in control of anything yet the notion that those in control know what they’re doing is hard to shift .

Very little concrete evidence is ever put forward for the more far-reaching conspiracy theories that imply a conspiratorial worldview. The stock-in-trade of the conspiracy writers is rumour, innuendo, guilt-by-association and half-knowledge passed off as fact. Take Bilderberg and its ilk as an example. Yes, there is plentiful evidence that organisations like the Bilderberg group exist. Yes, there is evidence that their members are rich and powerful people with their own agendas and quite some influence. But no, there is no evidence that such organisations “rule the world” and carefully manipulate states and economies at will – and no-one has yet provided any.

1. No reliable evidence has ever been furnished in support of a conspiracy “worldview”.
2. Such views are typically the product of misplaced theories and perspectives that interlock with, and reinforce, other erroneous ideas (such as with the Illuminati and numerology; anti-semitism and the occult).
3. Post-modernist culture has helped open the floodgates to a swathe of unsound conspiracy theories that seek to systematically interpret world events in a non-rational and unscientific manner.
4. Conspiracy theorists' assertions that a complex, technologically advanced society like capitalism cannot be at root “anarchic” in many of its operations, are misplaced.

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ocelot
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Apr 6 2011 15:35

I don't have a good source for such a project. Also I'm sceptical of the ability to change a person's deeply held worldview against their will, at least through direct confrontation (e.g. trying to expose the irrationality of their most emotively held beliefs). Which, when you think about it, is probably just as well (it really would be a nightmare if most people were so susceptible to manipulation of attitudes and beliefs).

Two points, however. First, there is a direct relationship between religious modes of thinking and conspiratorial and paranoid modes. (Monotheistic) religion teaches you to believe that behind the apparently random and disconnected events, other people's behaviour, etc, that makes up reality, there is a hidden, unified superhuman consciousness that is all-seeing, sees you, has the power to make sublte changes in reality to effect you, for good or ill, and is interested enough in you individually, to do so. How does this differ from conspiratorial or paranoid ways of looking at reality? Answer: it doesn't, it's effectively the same perspective.

There is a basic contradiction in monotheistic religion between the all-seeing, all-powerful, loving god and the presence of evil in the world. This problem of evil can lead of course, to atheism, but for recovering theists who find the psychological landscape of a world/universe devoid of any transcendant observer a little chilly (and a "good" catholic education will often do that to folks, no matter how much they reject the church intellectually), the alternative is the gnostic worldview, whereby the superhuman omniscient, (almost) omnipotent agent is still there, but as malevolant demi-urge, creator of a wicked and corrupt world. Of course that re-creates the slight hope of overcoming the demi-urge, casting aside his veils of deception and lies, and being reunited with the true godhead. Most conspiracy politics has elements of gnosticism in it (and, dare I say it, certain Indifferentist ultra-left tendencies).

The second angle is to do with the fallacy of composition. Much of the difficulties that people have with systemic problems, that ajj describes above, the need to find a personal force behind social nonsenses, is to do with the existing cognitive biases towards "bad people" frames, rather than "systemic problem".

In summary, if frontal assault won't work (and it almost never does when trying to challenge people's worldviews) then you need some kind of flanking maneuver - to come in sideways to the problem. The two lines of attack (there are doubtless others) I'm suggesting above are: 1) try and figure out what stage your friend is actually at in his recovery from catholicism, and, depending on that, possibly use the critique of religious thinking as a disguised proxy for critique of conspiratiorial thinking. 2) try seeding 'fallacy of composition' problems into the mix, especially via seemly less political topics like economics (easy to do in the current Irish context), e.g. Keynes' paradox of thrift, etc.

The general idea is to introduce new paradigms that will eventually undermine the existing one through erosion and cognitive dissonance.

Having said all that, it's highly unlikely that only sporadic contact will provide enough opportunity to have a hope of doing this in an effective way.

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Felix Frost
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Apr 6 2011 15:48
Mike Harman wrote:
If he's quite far gone, you could try arguing that conspiracy theories are themselves a conspiracy ;)

This is probably your best bet: Tell him that all the conspiracy theories he's into is promoted by the CIA in order to obscure the real conspiracy.

Sir Arthur Stre...
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Apr 6 2011 16:59

Unfortunatley the bread and butter of conspiracy theories is that everything is part of the conspiracy. SO thats all the well thought out counter-arguments posted in this thread out of the window.

Also I think it's an inditement of the horrors of capitalism that some people just can't except that the system exists by itself.

I nearly got commissioned to write the music to a short pro-David Icke documentary in the mould of 50's Educational videos, "Hey there Timmy, did you know the world is infact run by pan-dimensial space lizards??" that kind of thing. Shame it fell through, the film was completely nuts and the director openly admitted it was made as a marketing ploy.

Harrison
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Apr 6 2011 17:38
Felix Frost wrote:
Mike Harman wrote:
If he's quite far gone, you could try arguing that conspiracy theories are themselves a conspiracy ;)

This is probably your best bet: Tell him that all the conspiracy theories he's into is promoted by the CIA in order to obscure the real conspiracy.

or alternatively, present marxism/anarchism to him in conspiracy format beardy

i've found Guy Debord's Society of the Spectacle to be pretty conspiracy based.
especially the fact that Debord is basically rehashing Nietzsche's concept of the 'general secret', which is the pretty much the proto-conspiracy theory.

the whole idea of the spectacle is packaged as a conspiracy theroy but has a whole lot of truthful analysis to it. could be a way to introduce him to an analysis of capitalism so he veers away from the illuminati bullshit

i'd say buy him a copy of it as a birthday/christmas present, especially the one with this cover

Boris Badenov
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Apr 6 2011 18:31

Conspiraloons, like nationalists and religious fundamentalists, cannot be argued with rationally in my experience, but you could try that if you have a few hours (and many more neurons) to kill.
Conspiracy theories, some anyway, tend to have a remarkable degree of internal consistency, so it's hard to nitpick at the details in the hope that it will all collapse like a house of cards.
Best way imo, is to avoid the topic when you are hanging out (unless of course your friend is a terminal case and cannot not talk about it; judging by his support of Icke that might be the case), and hope that he will snap out of it somehow (probably won't happen unless he makes an effort himself).
The cure however, if there is one in this case, is not some book by Marx or "anarchism/marxism", it is simply using your rational faculties and embracing a healthy dose of skepticism about everything (adopting leftism as a substitute religion would be just as bad)

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Apr 6 2011 18:48
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Conspiracy theories, some anyway, tend to have a remarkable degree of internal consistency, so it's hard to nitpick at the details in the hope that it will all collapse like a house of cards.

Yeah, that's the thing. And the conspiraloons are often voracious readers; they will know far more about you (well obviously) about whatever conspiracy topic.

Quote:
Best way imo, is to avoid the topic when you are hanging out

Unless you find it entertaining, which is what I did. For a time a few of us sadly encouraged them to espouse the bs because it was fun to listen to them feeding off each other.

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Apr 6 2011 20:00

Thanks everyone. I think I disagree with some of you regarding the possibility of people changing. I see that some people take conspiracy stuff religiously, but I think for most people conpiracy theories are just a way of trying to make sense of the world around us. I think people see that the world and their lives are out of their control and then conclude that someone else must be controlling it. So they then go looking for whose in control.

I don't think that a totally crazy thing to think and do. I mean a lot of the left when they talk about the ruling class sound little different.

I think Samotnaf's thing is kind of interesting but I don't think that those kind of texts are really readable unless you've been around the left for a while and have picked up the terminology.

I think Mike's suggestion of telling his that conspiracy theories are a conspiracy is funny but probably wouldn't do much good.

Harrison Myers idea is the best so far. I might send him a copy of the film version of the society of the spectacle. It might appeal to him more than, as Mike suggests, getting him to read Capital.

Generally though, I do want to do something. I don't shove my politics down peoples throats but I think its important to be open about your politics and if and when a friend gets into crazy stuff (racism/anti-semitism/fundametalism/conspiracies whatever) its worth having a chat with them.

tigersiskillers
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Apr 6 2011 23:13

Perhaps ween him onto Chomsky? If he's into NWO stuff it'll cover vaguely similar ground - international politics, media distortion - but with an institutional analysis rather than a conspiratorial one. Perhaps seeing that bad stuff can be explained by systemic causes without resort to supposition and speculation might help.

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Khawaga
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Apr 7 2011 03:23

You don't geddit tigersiskillers, Chomsky is one of the gatekeepers...

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Apr 7 2011 04:34

Agree with kowabunga, Chomsky works for the Pentagon (aka MIT) and is a double dealer. However, at least in the US anyways, Orwell is a good intro to decent politics as long as you emphisize class relations. And I work with quite a few people who keep up with Alex J. and Glenn B.

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resist hypostasis
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Apr 7 2011 05:09

I would tell him that whether or not smaller sub-conspiracies exist is irrelevant because capitalism is the ultimate conspiracy from which all others emanate.

The reason that these conspiracy theories arise is because.. well.. there are conspiracies. Small cabals of capitalists are always conspiring in some way or another to manipulate and control. Whether it's the Bildeburgs or the Waltons.. The rich conspire.

So I say- If you can explain how the underlying ideology serves to obscure the structural conditions from which conspiracies are inevitable.. then you might be able to break through the noise with some signal so to say..

However, I don't believe the official 9/11 story either. I question the assassinations of JFK, MLK, Malcolm X, and John Lennon. I don't think it was the freemasons or reptiles though.. but the CIA. I don't think you need to go into all the unverifiable backwash out there in order to see conspiracies in action..

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ocelot
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Apr 7 2011 15:57

Or alternatively you could just buy him a box-set of the Illuminatus! trilogy for xmas.

slothjabber
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Apr 7 2011 19:44

George, do you know about this? - http://paulstott.typepad.com/911cultwatch/

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Apr 9 2011 03:21

As far as I can tell, the conspiratorial outlook is a bit like psychosis, in that it probably won't really go away as such, but it might be sort of backgrounded and become more a thing someone thought about loads in the past, and doesn't really disown, but isn't that relevant to them any more. I think the kind of efforts most people use to engage with conspiracists reinforce their outlook, rather than diffuse it (same way you can't really argue away psychosis). One on one chats, or reading books, or whatever, are things conspiracists are at home with, and well equipped to use to fuel their theories. However, if they get involved in stuff where the conspiracy nonsense just becomes irrelivent, you know the kind of thing, workplace and community organising and so on, the conspiritorial outlook may still hang around somewhere, but it'll be backgrounded since its not got anything much to feed off.

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resist hypostasis
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Apr 9 2011 09:15

Except that people in power do conspire.. so you could dismiss it outright as psychosis or a cult but all you are doing is leaving a theoretical vacuum open that is being filled by libertarians and Alex Jones types..

I don't believe any 'conspiracies' dogmatically but like I said before I cannot help but question the official narrative about certain events.. 9/11 included. It doesn't seem to me to be nonsense. There is certainly a lot of nonsense surrounding it.. but I'd expect that there would be a lot of noise and disinformation around events that need such measures.

However, I don't think that focusing on such events is necessarily productive.. but I think that being reactively dismissive is being narrow and ceding ground to the more nefarious who will fill the vacuum left by the left turning the other way in the name of political expediency..

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Apr 9 2011 09:22

I saw this thread and was just going to make a crack about just telling your friend to join the SPGB wink , but there's actually some really good discussion here.

At the school where I work the kids absolutely love conspiracy theories. 9/11, JFK, the moon landing, the Iluminati, you name it... I think most of it is actually quite harmless (although you can see where it merges/verges on anti-Semitism at times). I find that if I approach them with something like 'It's really important that we're critical of the things government's say, because they do lie, but it's really important that as historians (this always comes up in history lessons) we have evidence for what we believe, not just a theory.' I then try to bring the conversations onto simplistic class terms and inject a bit of rationality. They usually respond pretty well.

However, these are fifteen years olds who are angry at the injustice of the world (although full of contradictions and trouble articulating exactly what they're angry at), so it's a bit of a different case from your friend.

slothjabber
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Apr 9 2011 13:53

There's also a big difference between 'the US security services might have had knowledge that Al Q'aeda operatives were planning something big' and 'no Jews died in the WTC because September 11th was orchestrated by the Lizard Masters and anyway Marx was mentored by Mazzini who was an Illuminatus because he proposed a Europe-wide government'.

The argument isn't about whether governments and the military-industrial complex lie, of course they do. The 'conspiracy' in that sense is real. But the factors that the NWOers deduce to explain it all really do leave reason and sense behind.

It's demonstrably ludicrous, by taking a step back and arguing 'why?' - why are the lizards fooling us about everything? If they have controlled all of human history from the Emperor Justinian onwards (or whatever it is) why haven't they just killed us all? Have they never watched 'The Matrix' and thought 'yeah that would be easier, let's just drug the humans and harvest their organs'? Why have they allowed David Icke to live and spread his anti-Lizard propaganda? Why have they gone to all this trouble when almost anything else would have been easier?

Even if one believes in all this nonsense, isn't the best course of action still for the working class to organise against the ruling class? If we're slaves to the Lizards, don't we still have to fight to overthrow them and their puppets?

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Apr 9 2011 15:58
slothjabber wrote:
Even if one believes in all this nonsense, isn't the best course of action still for the working class to organise against the ruling class? If we're slaves to the Lizards, don't we still have to fight to overthrow them and their puppets?

good point. a lot of conspiracy theorists get so paranoid and even scared that they just sit on their asses doing nothing. or if they do want to do something it's the laughable "impeach the president", "let's get back to the days of the American constitution" (I've even heard this argument by non-Americans... go figure) or "if only JFK was alive". If there is one conspiracy to all this conspiracy bs it is that it makes the powers that be so all powerful that you might as well just give up even trying to do something.

Baderneiro Miseravel
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Apr 9 2011 16:01

slothjabber
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Apr 9 2011 19:12

Is Reece Shearsmith a Lizardy Overlord then? I always thought that there was something funny about Royston Vasey.

I'm stealing that pic by the way, unless the Lizards get to it (or you, or me) first.

Khawaga wrote:
... if they do want to do something it's the laughable "impeach the president", "let's get back to the days of the American constitution" (I've even heard this argument by non-Americans... go figure) or "if only JFK was alive"...

Don't they know that the American Constitution was written by Freemasons? Arrgh! Lizardy!

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Apr 10 2011 02:08
slothjabber wrote:
Is Reece Shearsmith a Lizardy Overlord then? I always thought that there was something funny about Royston Vasey.

I'm stealing that pic by the way, unless the Lizards get to it (or you, or me) first.

Khawaga wrote:
... if they do want to do something it's the laughable "impeach the president", "let's get back to the days of the American constitution" (I've even heard this argument by non-Americans... go figure) or "if only JFK was alive"...

Don't they know that the American Constitution was written by Freemasons? Arrgh! Lizardy!

Moreover there was a whole political upheaval in the early 1800's with Antimasonic parties running on the Mason-hating ticket throughout the US. A lot of proto-laborist parties joined them because of their popularity and anti-establishment cred. So really, not much has changed in the past 200 years.

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Apr 10 2011 04:05
resist hypostasis wrote:
Except that people in power do conspire.. so you could dismiss it outright as psychosis or a cult but all you are doing is leaving a theoretical vacuum open that is being filled by libertarians and Alex Jones types..

Well, everyone conspires in a sense. If you are trying to unionise a workplace you sure as hell better conspire, or else you're liable to get fired. But conspiracists are not just people who see that people sometimes organise secretly when conditions demand it. They are people who think the whole nature of society is determined by a single, broad reaching, secrete organisation. This is where they mistake the social function (secretive organising) for the social condition, if that makes sense.

Also, I don't compare the conspiricist outlook with psychosis to dismiss it, partly since I am psychotic myself. What I was more hoping to do was to draw useful parallels. However, since most people here know slightly less than nothing about psychosis (i.e. most of what they think is probably wrong, like almost everyone in society) this was likely a poor tactic to use, and the analogy, which I still maintain is basically correct, was not going to be informative to most people reading it.

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Apr 14 2011 07:19

As others have said it depends how far into conspiracy theories he is.I've known one or two people who beleied in the whole aids as conspiracy theory, and had a vague notion about the illuminati. I had more success with a ''so what'' type approach than with actually trying to argue against the conspiracy theory.
While the idea of HIV being created in a lab is bollocks, its hard to actually argue against, since many states obviously did create bioloical weapons for years, and more lethal ones than aids at that. So aids today kills millions of people, but the arguement to put forward is that most of those people are dying because they are poor and could not afford the retrovirals availble in the UK or have access to contraception to avoid ifection in he first place. Thus it does not matter where aids comes from, it still kills the poor. as do deseases like disentry and cholera, which no-one but a loon could possibly think weren't naturally evolved organisms.

With this arguement you can tell how deeply someone is into the whole thing anyway, because your asking them how do we get rid of this poverty thats killing people? If you're a true conspiracy theorist there is no way out unless everyone 100% beleives in the conspiracy, and even then there mght not be. To them every possible form of social organisation and collective action woudl be tainted and dominated by said conspiracy from the biggest coropoation to the smallest local protest group. Thus they have retreated utterly into an individualist approach about changing peoples way of seeing one at a time. Obviously people who are more vaguely and loosely into it wouldn;t have quite such a paranoid mindset.

I'd agree with others on this thread though, defending david icke is probly a sign that he's pretty far gone. Followers of icke tend to be of the ''every form of organisation is in on it theres no way out'' mentality.Hence the lizards are transdimensional and thus uber powerful. Icke never proposes how we shoudl overthrow them to my knowedge probably because he considers such an act impossible. I mean lets be honest when you start beleiving icke, you'll pretty much beleive anything
eg shamans and magic necklaces
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qi1sB9WUTI&feature=related

Arbeiten's picture
Arbeiten
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Apr 16 2011 02:10

I walked into the bookshop (waterstones) in my town the other day and there was two David Icke books. Took a quick look through them. Its totally crazy shit. If anyone is a lizard its Icke. I tell you what the real conspiracy is. David Icke is a lizard that writes bile to pervert young peoples minds so they don't turn into anarcho-leftists.

Its really difficult to ween people off this stuff, a few people I know are really into this, 9/11 being false, Illuminati, Zeitgeist. I don't even know where to start, I just stopped talking politics with them completely.....

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fabiossh
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Apr 20 2011 05:25

thats my first post in this forum. Well i listen to punk music since 2004 and i started listening to some anarchist bands,so i grew up in the counterculture scene

to the creator of the topic: The most important is to help n support your friend if he's isolated n people are laughing at him.C'mon you're gonna turn your back over him coz he seems to be crazy now? you will let him become depressed n excluded just because he believes in stuff you disagree?

for me the best definiton of anarchy is a quote from a Stiff little fingers song: "question EVERYTHING you're told". The astronomists who said the earth was not the center of the solar system centuries ago were labeled as retards n i can see self claimed free thinkers that would laugh at them coz what they said was unbelievible by that time!

Well i think you dont need to be a conspiracy theorist to see 9/11 is a farse. C'mon someone here still believe what the governmant version? i agree with the art of the album "Fuck WTO" of Leftover crack,about this.

New world order= globalisation. see in youtube some world leaders talking about creating a NWO,in these terms.

I think Zeitgeist is a great series full of positive ideas,the problem is some people that make it a sect,but it happens in all kinds of ideologys.

David Icke... When I heard the reptilian idea i was like "WTF? is he nuts,a disinfo agent,just greedy...or there's truth in that?" Then i saw "Microchipping the troops" on youtube.. The royal families claimed to be sons of the gods,blue blood means they have different DNA.Even sex pistols knew that! either way everybody here will disagree with that but it's infatile to fight over it,we all know the royal familys are parasites and they will rule forever if we keep fighting each other. anyway i really take serious some david icke speechs n im not afraid to admit!

Rage against the machine video "Testify" starts with "Alien plot to conquer earth:launch the mutants now" and show Bush and Al Gore as non humans. interpretate as a metaphor or not dont matter we all agree with the rest. Also there's a movie called "They live" about a conspiracy where non humans manipulate humanity, even if you dont agree the movie have a great libertarian message.

I just dont agree with people self claimed anarchists or free thinkers that pre-judge any information that dont fit his mold,anarchy is not a closed system of beliefs or behavior

C'mon.someone here believes Cindy Mccain is human?