Incels Celebrate Recent Killing Spree -- and some thoughts on Leftist Failure

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jef costello
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May 14 2018 19:24
Noa Rodman wrote:
I said gamergate/videosgames do not seem directly relevant to the OP topic, namely the incel van attack, because the few gamers that I know aren't incels. .

The few Leninists that I have met said that Lenin said that you haven't got a clue what you are on about and view this forum as a place where you can just keep spewing words until people give up and then claim victory.

Noa Rodman wrote:
I don't know if the original French author talked about global conspiracy, so much as about ruling class methods in a state like France under Napoleon III. It's not an economic analysis of capital.

Maybe finding out would be a good idea?
https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Dialogue_aux_enfers_entre_Machiavel_et_Montesquieu/Premier_dialogue
As a rule of thumb, I would read a text before characterising it, especially if it is the source for one of the most notorious anti-semitic writings around.

Mike Harman
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May 14 2018 20:08
Noa Rodman wrote:
RedKahina pointed out e.g. that R. Spencer endorsed her book. So you're saying little new, and a little late.

A few people noticed that at the time, however Richard Spencer saying "I like this book about the alt-right" is not the same as Nagle herself talking about the creation of 'steep sexual hierarchies' or quoting Dugin about himself uncited via Wikipedia. If no-one was talking about the book there'd be no need to take it apart, but it's had a lot of renewed promotion the past month.

Noa wrote:
I'm using it as proof that there were incels before gamergate (because there was an implication by some here of a causal connection between gamergate and the rise of misogyny).
However Fleur herself said about the neo-misogynists before gamergate: "The major protagonists were already there, the misogynists were already there," It's not a direct causal factor, even we simply base it on the timeline.

Something existing prior to an event doesn't contradict there being an increase as a result of the event. As a simple example, if there are hundreds of misogynists in MRA forums on reddit or similar, then suddenly they register twitter accounts to harass women, there will be an increase in direct misogynistic abuse against women, as opposed to the previous relatively closed-circuit ranting between men, even if the number of misogynistic people does not increase.

Noa wrote:
I didn't question your expertise on gamergate or call for your remarks to be split-off from the thread.

No you didn't because you're quite happy to derail this thread with misinformed contrarianism. I should've continued to split your posts off from here after the original split but will start doing that again soon.

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May 14 2018 20:16
Fleur wrote:
Currently a further iteration of gamergate is happening in the comic book field, same shit, abusing women creators and even women who work in comic book stores. Someone I peripherally know has taken her 2 year old and gone into hiding after doxing and threats against her child.

Anyway, to return to the actually important part of this thread: that's really horrible and I'm sorry it's happening to your friend/acquaintance, also thank you for sharing that information with us because I was totally unaware of it. Are there any articles you'd recommend as being a good introduction to the situation? Also, do you have any thoughts about what "we" could do, either to support the people affected or to disrupt the people doing it? The only thing I can think of myself is counter-doxing, but obviously that requires a very specific set of skills that most people don't have.

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May 14 2018 20:58
jef costello wrote:
Maybe finding out would be a good idea?
https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Dialogue_aux_enfers_entre_Machiavel_et_Montesquieu/Premier_dialogue
As a rule of thumb, I would read a text before characterising it,

So you have read it and found it was about global conspiracy (as Mike claims)? If not then I would repeat it seems talking about some Machiavellian political methods (as the title indicates).

R Totale wrote:
But please, go on with your very important analysis of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, ffs.

It's Mike who brought up the Protocols, but you're right, its a derail.

R Totale wrote:
No, my problem is that you seem to be unable to post on a thread without turning it into the Noa Rodman Show through a mix of aggressively wronghead contrarianism .

To be clear, when I said that you have a problem with my views, but express this under the cowardly guise of complaints about alleged derailing, I'm not condemning you for having a disagreement with me, but only for not trying to openly discuss it. You cannot fathom the possibility of disagreement existing, dismissing it instead as contrarianism. Same as Mike:

Mike Harman wrote:
you're quite happy to derail this thread with misinformed contrarianism.

Actually the comments I made are totally uncontroversial had they not been said by me as a persona non grata.

Quote:
I should've continued to split your posts off from here after the original split but will start doing that again soon.

Your intimidation has failed so far. I didn't want to let you nip a potentially interesting debate on incels in the bud. But if that is your intent, I have done my part to prevent it.

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May 14 2018 21:34
Noa Rodman wrote:
jef costello wrote:
Maybe finding out would be a good idea?
https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Dialogue_aux_enfers_entre_Machiavel_et_Montesquieu/Premier_dialogue
As a rule of thumb, I would read a text before characterising it,

So you have read it and found it was about global conspiracy (as Mike claims)? If not then I would repeat it seems talking about some Machiavellian political methods (as the title indicates).

Have you read it? You are the one charactersiing it, I am advising you to read it first. I am not going to read a long, dull text (I did have a quick look) so you can ignore what I say about it if it doesn't fit with your assumptions based on the title.

The protocoles of the Elders of Zion was not written by the Elders of Zion and is not a list of their protocols.This is a good example of why we should read more than the title of a work.

Quote:
To be clear, when I said that you have a problem with my views, but express this under the cowardly guise of complaints about alleged derailing, I'm not condemning you for having a disagreement with me, but only for not trying to openly discuss it. You cannot fathom the possibility of disagreement existing, dismissing it instead as contrarianism. Same as Mike:

I think it is because you change the subject, dismiss people's experience of an issue based on your admittedly scant knowledge, refer to works you haven't read and then expect others to rread them etc. If you could actually stand your ground then it might seem like you believed in things rather than being a contrarian. Although I don't think you are, I just think you want to score points and that you think you are somehow winning rather than wasting people's time. Mine isn't too vluable but it is worth more than this, I could have translated a news article rather than replying. It does genuinely bother me that you do this and I do, for some reason, think that it is possible to help you actually do something productive, although I don't think I have managed to help you in that way at all.

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Actually the comments I made are totally uncontroversial had they not been said by me as a persona non grata.

Please explain what you mean, because aside from pointing out your errors, asking you to explain things that you can't because you haven't thought them out or read them, no one has oppressed you in any way. Even if Mike did seperate your comments it wouldn't be censorship or a sign that you were being mistreated.

Quote:
Your intimidation has failed so far. I didn't want to let you nip a potentially interesting debate on incels in the bud. But if that is your intent, I have done my part to prevent it.

I thought you were claiming that you didn't get irony. This can't be anything but a joke.

ps my bet for Noa's response is that he picks up on the word censorship and points out that he never said it.

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May 14 2018 21:47
jef wrote:
You are the one charactersiing it,

Mike is, he brought it up. You should tell him to read it.

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The protocoles of the Elders of Zion was not written by the Elders of Zion and is not a list of their protocols.This is a good example of why we should read more than the title of a work.

But Joly's work is as the title indicates a (fictional) dialogue between Machiavelli and Montesquieu.

Quote:
If you could actually stand your ground then it might seem like you believed in things rather than being a contrarian.

Plain baiting.

Fleur
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May 14 2018 22:30

R Totale:

Comicsgate is just an extension of Gamergate, basically hating on women, people of colour, LGBTQ,damned ess jaw dubyas ruining comics. Until very recently it had no particular focus, just giving women and minorities a hard time. Here's a good enough explanation as any
https://www.inverse.com/article/41132-comicsgate-explained-bigots-milkshake-marvel-dc-gamergate

And The Mary Sue is always a good place to check in on what is going on in nerd world (it's often awful.)
https://www.themarysue.com/

Not really a friend, a friend of a friend. There's an organization of women who work in comics, I've never been particularly active in it because I don't care to talk much about work outside of work and it's far more useful for the creatives. Something of a networking/support group/place to moan about men away from public view. Someone"s got into this membership group and has passed on personal information, including addresses and these women are being at the receiving end of targeted harassment.

One of the protagonists has failed to get his graphic novel published by any of the big publishers (because it's crap and business is bad right now and nobody is picking up anything) and obviously it's all the fault of these women. He's self published and a lot of comic book stores aren't going to stock it, what with it being white supremacist, sexist bullshit and now they have a locus to concentrate their pathetic campaign over. The almighty free speech violation bullshit and obviously the best way to deal with that is to make the lives of individual women miserable. This guy's denial of free speech by not being able to force people to buy his shitty book is the ethics in journalism moment.

It's really pathetic and would be funny if it wasn't real people who are being harassed, reported to cops as pedophiles, comic stores being vandalized and all sorts of crap. Women who's names and addresses were on that list are upset because we all saw what happened during gamergate and nobody wants that shit.

Dumb ass bigotry. Print comics are struggling - dying actually - and apparently all the fault of diversity in comics, which is bullshit anyway, it's still a white boy industry.

Edit:

Actually I have no idea what to do about it. Women in comics are always very good at supporting each other but there's no way these men are going to go away, shut up or calm the fuck down. The Big Four pander to them and have given in to them, cancelled contracts for women and slightly leftward leaning writers on big titles. Best I can hope for is that they're doing to die off eventually but print comics will most likely die first.

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May 14 2018 22:41

I posted this on another LBC thread. It does a good job of taking the piss out of the man victim anti fem/sjw thing...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cfDYcEAg2DA&feature=youtu.be

wojtek
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May 15 2018 05:32

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/435g9p/how-to-help-an-incel-sex-therapist

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May 16 2018 17:24

Again, this might seem lighthearted on my part, but a comedy movie on the 'victim' situation of men in today's society is The Full Monty. The opening starts by talking about the de-industrialisation (in Leeds iirc).

The effects of the expansion of the labour pool by the (re-)entry of women since the 70s, the disproportional effect on classically male jobs of automation, the rise of services (stereotypically female), - all this is sociological background, as mentioned e.g. by Susan Faludi, Hanna Rosin, etc.

I don't think The Full Monty provides the right answer.

One apparently "progressive" answer is that men should just accept it and learn to be more flexible, go into service jobs (like nursing), etc. Just another example I found telling was about a car factory that closed down. The workers were offered to go to therapy to cope with their trauma (therapists mostly young women – as Badiou also has noted, women are at the social front line in jobs dealing with male outcasts), and had to go into nursing (which probably meant taking a cut compared to their previous wage).

And again, this might seem archaic on my part, but all this sociological stuff was already know by people in the nineteenth century like Engels.

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May 16 2018 20:05

Wtf does anything of that have to do with incels?

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May 16 2018 21:42

To be fair Khawaga, much of this conversation has been only loosely connected with the OP. I don’t see why Noa should be singled out for it.

radicalgraffiti
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May 16 2018 22:02
Noah Fence wrote:
To be fair Khawaga, much of this conversation has been only loosely connected with the OP. I don’t see why Noa should be singled out for it.

its extremely obvious what gamergate, the far right in general, how to deal with toxic masculinity etc have to do with the op, noa's post on the other hand just appear to be random thoughts that popped into his head

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May 16 2018 22:20

Well the thread turned to shit long ago and certainly Noa played his part in that but I do see the connection that he’s making with his post.

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May 17 2018 05:12

Toxic masculinity isn't just an attitude, but, as others here have said, has its own ideology (and therefore has to be dealt with theoretically, i.e. in discussion). It has been said that incels (and in general misogynists) rely e.g. on a victim-narrative about themselves. The "sociological" points I mention are a partially real background to a male victim-narrative, as well as to theories of a feminisation of late capitalism (a la Baudrillard, Tiqqun, Nina Power). I'm sure rightwing/misogynists are conscious of these points, and even may portray women as victims of it as well (e.g. being sexualised), yet they would frame/blame it e.g. on some "cultural marxist" ideology of the liberal elite.

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May 17 2018 07:48

There certainly is an issue around work, identification with your work, gender roles and deindustrialisation/low pay/casualisation/service economy, but there's a problem with seeing men as specific victims. This view often involves an assumption that men should have skilled and dignified work, but women doing lower paid and lower status work isn't a problem. Men being pushed out of higher paid work and into the kind of work that women were doing the whole time anyway is seen as a specific attack on male dignity, rather than just fighting for improvements in the conditions of all those low paid workers, men and women.

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May 17 2018 12:41
fingers malone wrote:
There certainly is an issue around work, identification with your work, gender roles and deindustrialisation/low pay/casualisation/service economy, but there's a problem with seeing men as specific victims. This view often involves an assumption that men should have skilled and dignified work, but women doing lower paid and lower status work isn't a problem. Men being pushed out of higher paid work and into the kind of work that women were doing the whole time anyway is seen as a specific attack on male dignity, rather than just fighting for improvements in the conditions of all those low paid workers, men and women.

Yes Fingers, absolutely, and it’s pretty clear to us here, but somehow, rather than waking up to the fact that patriarchy fucks men as well as women, and realising that the (slight) rebalancing of gender in the workplace is at least a minuscule move in the right direction, many men see this as women taking away their natural roles and push back at women/feminists/SJWs whilst drawing on many misogynistic myths to justify their actions/attitudes. Sometimes to extremes that are both revolting and mind boggling in equal measure.

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May 17 2018 12:52

Thanks Noah

Mike Harman
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May 17 2018 13:53

Not my area, but I think the pyschological term for what Fingers and Noah are talking about is 'status loss'. Not going to try to expand on that point but maybe someone knows more about this stuff:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/ejsp.609 / https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/item.aspx?num=41874

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May 17 2018 16:33

Oh God, I am watching the first episode of the Heathers TV show. It has been retooled so bullies are SJWs picking on cheerleaders and jocks. JD could only be considered edgy by Denis Leary and clearly the only reason to ever question anything is to bully people rather than to actually want to change things. Painfully tone-deaf and uncomprehending repetition of things from the film, and both relying on your knowledge of the film for things to make sense even though they directly contradict what the new version actually says. It is awful.

It pretty much embodies the idea of status loss and the complete incomprehension of others that enables the persecution complex that is required to crush social movements.

I hate this show so much. It has nothing but contempt for humanity in the worst sense. I want to punch this show square in the face.

Fleur
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May 21 2018 15:48

My local paper has been covering the rise of the alt right - pretty well, to my surprise - including sympathetic coverage of local antifa, who have tracked down a fairly big name in online alt-right, with connections to Charlotteville, to a local man. Anyway, this article is a decent 101 on the connections between neo-misogyny and the far right, it's pretty much a gateway to the far right, and it's connections to gamergate etc.

Alt-right in Montreal: The war against women
http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/alt-right-in-montreal-the-war-against-women

It's not possible to understand the ideology behind incels without seeing it in context of the bigger picture and these men are not the same as the average common or garden sexists and/or men who are violent against women, which is something which crosses ideological boundaries.

I don't particularly have a solution to them but I think you have to treat them in the same way you treat the fash. You may be able to reason with and debate the average, ignorant racist, with positive outcomes but a committed fascist is much harder to deal with using those methods. These men are the same - literally - and can't be dealt with in the same way.

The concept of the victim narrative is a bit off with them too. They're not unemployed steel workers feeling loss. By and large the alt right are middle class, educated and not the poor white bootboys the media like to portray them as. If you go through the roll call of the men identified at Charlotteville, they were by and large university students and professional men. We know that fascism has always been an ideology of the ruling classes, it's important that we don't fall into the classist trope that it's the ideology of the poor now.

We have to take these men seriously and not just paint them as poor suckers working out their sexual frustration. They are part of a much wider ideological framework.

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May 21 2018 17:17
Quote:
I don't particularly have a solution to them but I think you have to treat them in the same way you treat the fash. You may be able to reason with and debate the average, ignorant racist, with positive outcomes but a committed fascist is much harder to deal with using those methods. These men are the same - literally - and can't be dealt with in the same way.

Whilst transformations an occur - a very long time ago I once knew a pair of fascist skinhead queerbashers, a pretty interesting and engaging pair they could be at times too, who when I last heard of them around twelve years ago, were living in Cologne as a couple and were very busy anti fash activists, I think Fleur is right about this. These guys were certainly not casual about their ideology and not a single on of my dozens of conversations with them ever had them moving even a fraction of an inch from their position.
Even with casual racists, sexists or whatever it’s pretty unlikely you’ll get anywhere, although Cameron LSR is a pretty amazing example of the phenomenon, but with extremists I think that engaging with them is almost certainly pointless.
I don’t know how the conversion of the two skinheads came about, but my guess is that with them or others who hold a deeply entrenched extremist position the rare occasion when they change is when they realise that their ideology and the actions and attitudes that stem from them are failing them and always will.
Whatever it is though, it’s rocking horse shit rare.

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May 22 2018 14:05
jef costello wrote:
Oh God, I am watching the first episode of the Heathers TV show.

to quote Khawaga: Wtf does anything of that have to do with incels?

Probably you just posted on the wrong thread (and still you got 2 up votes).

But school yard social dynamics are an interesting topic for analysis. The Staceys and Chads are at the top of the hierarchy in terms of popularity. School life is a toxic environment, with its conformism, fitting-in, "rackets", test scores, learning by rote, etc. Libertarians have their critique of that ready-made, so they tap into the hatred (which is a justified hatred, probably most people feel, and still have nightmares about school/university years later).

fingers malone wrote:
Men being pushed out of higher paid work and into the kind of work that women were doing the whole time anyway is seen as a specific attack on male dignity, rather than just fighting for improvements in the conditions of all those low paid workers, men and women.

or into unemployment. The word that describes this feeling is abjection (a Weimar-era movie on this isDer blaue Engel: "the tragic transformation of a respectable professor to a cabaret clown and his descent into madness.").

Also, it's not simply men, but woman too who can hold "misogynist" ideas (there were female nazis after all, or Trump-voters). Although female online trolls are perhaps indeed a rare breed (or they do it on some other level).

Fleur wrote:
it's important that we don't fall into the classist trope that it's the ideology of the poor now.

Proudhon was petty-bourgeois, and Belfort Bax was a lawyer. They were nominally some kind of socialists though, and it's a favorite past-time for some to chastise the traditional working class organisations ("Leninists") on account of their sexism etc. so evidently there is a left-wing version. On the other hand fascists do intend to recruit among the working class, so they incorporate some class demagogy into their discourse or even centre their discourse around it (I think it was Mike who called that "class reductionism").

Quote:
but a committed fascist is much harder to deal with using those methods.

Yes, but I don't think hardcore misogynists would come to a discussion group to begin with.

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Aug 19 2018 08:50

This Contrapoints vid was pretty educational for me...

https://youtu.be/fD2briZ6fB0

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Aug 19 2018 10:06

I thought the stuff about language was interesting. The way these terms and phrases get stuck in peoples heads and shape their thoughts. The far right anti immigration crowd has similar repeated phrases. I've noticed that when researching the far right or just reading to many anti immigration comments in mainstream media the phrases can later pop into my head when I least expect it. I imagine of you expose yourself to memed language whilst sympathizing with the content your mind will be pretty badly reprogrammed. There must be research about it somewhere.

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Aug 20 2018 18:27

Yeah, this is a really interesting point. In particular, I always felt weird about how popular the "virgin vs chad" meme became for a while - I get that the vast majority of people who used it were doing so ironically, but I always felt quite uncomfortable about seeing people recycling archetypes that only make sense in the incel worldview, even in a joking way.

mn8
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Sep 18 2018 10:11

That meme does demonstrate how incel terminology in wider culture can seem to take on an opposite significance - in wider culture, the 'Chad' is the hero and the 'incel' is the villain. If incels are marginalised in such ways, it's only natural that they group together for a safer space. The incels also tolerate 'lower class' or unemployed life and the sense of ennui towards the system, which would often get them looked down upon in other circles including 'MGTOW' and the 'alt-right.' If you were to portray things in terms of children's popular culture (which children are brought up on and motivated by), there is the Disney 'Prince' whom the heroine must fall in love with (or a high school jock in Cinderella Story, etc.), and then there are incels who are 'outshone' and marginalised by this Prince's portrayal. If 'sex sells,' then it tends to 'sell' when the focus is on a bunch of people who are getting it and are happy about it. You suspect that there is some hypocrisy in the attempt to dismiss, attack, or convert incels by a popular culture which has dedicated itself to promoting the romance of the bourgeois and their dedicated servants. This might just drive the incels further towards extremism.

I think that most approaches to incels does basically involve stigmatising them and calling them 'lame' for not having sex, but that only reinforces their siege mentality. Besides, few other political movements will actually deal with their personal situation and personal qualms, rather than abstract social agendas. The danger is that 'incel' does not only mean a viewpoint but also a type of person, and general stigmas about demographics may come across as frequently in anti-incel material as from the incels themselves. Incels are often poor and sexless in a culture obsessed with sex and wealth.