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Animals, being vegan, etc.

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Standfield's picture
Standfield
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Aug 6 2014 08:19

Just want to say thanks for the cronometer Webby, been looking for something like that for ages, just to make sure I'm getting it all. Just imputed all I could remember from yesterday, and I've quite comfortably surpassed everything, only vitamin A was below 60% and water was pretty low, but I've always known I should drink more of that stuff. Trans fat was at 1.246g, while cholesterol was 28%, though aside from a banana I didn't have any raw foods yesterday, and used a fair bit of oil, ate 500g of gnocchi and drank a couple of beers. I got 95% of my nutritional needs apparently. If nothing else it's quite interesting. I'm going to do this for a week, eating what I normally do, and see if I any alarm bells ring. B12 was fine as I take a pill everyday, and I walk loads, and work outside a lot so D is pretty safe.

Does this take into account combinations though? I mean, I've heard that some vitamins don't absorb well with others. Maybe Fleur would know a bit about that?

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Kureigo-San
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Aug 6 2014 09:46

Fleur, what you're talking about is starvation which isn't just a protein deficiency, it's a deficiency of literally everything..fat, carbs, minerals, nutrients, food water. Developing countries and your great gran have suffered a calorie deficit in general, not from any particular way of eating. Maybe the people you've heard are not communicating the idea very well, but the notion more accurately put is: if you are eating enough calories, you are eating enough protein. Your examples of developing countries and your great gran are neither here nor there, as they haven't had access to enough calories in general. What you have to show to successfully make your point is a case where somebody is eating 3000+ calories of plant foods and is shown to have developed a protein deficiency. I've never seen or heard of such a thing, and nobody has been able to tell me what the symptoms of that might even look like, i.e where someone is eating enough real food in general but not getting enough protein.

A cucumber may well be 24% protein, but it doesn't really count for much anyway because the cucumber itself is so low in calories. A banana even with its much lower protein content gives more bang for your buck because every banana is about 110 calories compared to a cucumber's, what, 30?

I'm just going to leave these here. There comes a point when you have to use your eyes more than your ears

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WG4x_pCxjo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5vdqX7zgqM

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boozemonarchy
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Aug 6 2014 18:10
Kureigo-San wrote:
, what you're talking about is starvation which isn't just a protein deficiency, it's a deficiency of literally everything..fat, carbs, minerals, nutrients, food water.

Kwashiorkor is actually a thing despite its history of fucking things up in the treatment of marasmus. Its a protein deficiency in the presence of adequate intake of calories (usually starches).

Though it starts with protein, those suffering from kwashiorkor quickly develop deficiencies in basically everything because of amino-acids role in the digestive/metobolic process is disrupted. Further, general health is effected due to amino-acids major role in the endocrine and immune systems.

To give you an idea how serious it is

A person with kwashiorkor won't really benefit from eating fats as their lipoprotien (fat transport system) fails. The enzymes responsible for the hydrolosis of carbs depend on amino-acids as well. In fact, protein digestion is dependent on the protein trypsin (which is cobbled together with amino-acids in the pancreas) in the first place. Protein deficiency is dangerous as fuck as you can fall in a hole that is hard to get out of. At some point, food-based protein can't treat kwashiorkor because the body will drop the ball in its digestion. Somebody has to break those peptide bonds!

Its really nothing to shrug your shoulders at and claim its neither here nor there.

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Kureigo-San
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Aug 6 2014 12:33

Hm, well Fleur seemed to be trying to make some link between that and the supposed shortcomings of plants.

Usually populations living in famine-prone areas have access to only one caloric staple at any given time, which isn't what I'm on about. That's obviously going to produce deficiencies.

Do you think that Kwashiorkor and Marasmus could happen to people who ate a vegan, plant-based diet, long-term? If so, this thread is getting exponentially stranger with every post.

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Noah Fence
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Aug 6 2014 13:07

The number of incidents of this in the west is negligible and my guess is that the cases that do exist are ED related. Regardless of all that this just ain't gonna happen eating a well balanced diet whether it's vegan or not. Obviously it also won't happen with a standard American or European diet because they are pretty protein heavy.
I've just put today's food in to chronometer and have so far hit 76% of my RDA protein. That has come from just 5.3% of today's calories. I have had no cooked food, just various fruits and a small amount of spinach and avocado. I will probably have a large portion of rice and vegetables for dinner which will take me to around 100% RDA. If I have any pulses I will be way over . I will be eating some snacks before dinner as well so I would guess my calories for the day will be around 3800 of which about 85% of which will be carbs. Get enough varied calories and you'll get enough protein.

Fleur
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Aug 6 2014 14:09

Webby
Sorry about that, didn't come back after dinner as I had some people unexpectedly show up, forcing unscheduled socialbility on me.

It seems wise to avoid many of the youtube videos, not only are they like a latter day old time revival, endless testimonials to their miraculous healing and weird culty behaviour but they seem so often to be talking straight out of their arses. And yes, you can live probably live perfectly well on nothing but plant foods (excluding grains & beans etc) and I'm sure you can feel great on it but it's the long term effects that are going to be the worry. Not to mention that you have to spend so much of your time carefully monitoring and evaluating and monitoring your intake of every thing to make sure you're getting adequate supply of various micronutrients which you need for your long term health. Seriously, eat some fucking lentils or nuts or something that sensible vegans have done for donkey's years. Some of these plant diet only proponents talk about things like not eating "dead food" ie anything which isn't fresh picked from a tree and that nuts die if left hanging around for too long. A little bit of biology 101 wouldn't hurt.

Kuriego -San

I wondered when someone with great abs doing athletics was going to be posted up. And yes, I've seen that video before, just about every blog on the subject links to it. How about some actual research? As much as enjoy looking at people with great bodies, it doesn't actually tell me much.

Quote:
There comes a point when you have to use your eyes more than your ears

Oh come on, that's just a side step away from telling me to be touched by the holy spirit.
Someone I used to know taught martial arts and spent half his life in the gym bodybuilding, while at the same time suffering from bulimia. You can look great and perform well despite having a shit diet, as long as you have a thoroughly unhealthy obsession with food and devote absurd amounts of your time to maintaining it. You're forgetting that I have spent a long time being vegan, obviously not a true believer though because I chose to get much of my micronutrients from pulses, beans etc, rather than chowing down to bucket loads of Kale.

I'm finding your arguments disingenuous. You started at the beginning of this thread proposing veganism as an animal rights issue, linking that to a class struggle issue, using words like speciesism and genocide. When no-one was buying that, you moved on to arguments such as the one that we are not designed to eat meat because we don't have tails. (post#29.) Then you move on to the it'll cure disease argument - which is the most annoying of all because desperate sick people will try anything.

Quote:
The thing about cancer is, that a plant-based diet has been shown over and over to halt cancer development and often reverses it. Cancer is our most popular apology for animal experimentation but the answer has been growing on trees the whole time. I don't want to expend too much energy convincing you of this, I just recommend T Colin Campbell as an author to start with if you want. On AIDs I am less familiar

(My bold)Post#17
Well, I'm glad you're less familiar with with AIDS because there are raw food vegans actively promoting the diet as a cure for HIV.
There's a reason why people call the China Study the Vegan Bible, because like the other bible it's taken on faith and it really doesn't matter how often it's findings are refuted people believe in it with all their hearts and souls. Raw food vegan diets are being touted as cures for all sorts of things, cancer, HIV, all kinds of auto-immune diseases, various mental health issues, ADHD, autism. I have no doubt that eating well and having lots of vegetables in your diet can make you feel better and alleviate symptoms, but as cures? A little close to snake oil.

As for protein values in vegetables, you yourself have been posting up this percentages, without explanation.

Quote:
Tomatoes are about 15% protein, cherimoyas/custard apples are about 7%, cucumber about 20%, watermelons about 7%, lettuce about 16% - if an adult eating in the range of 2800 - 3000 calories ate these foods, they would find that in the end their protein intake of total calories consumed would come between 6-8%.

Post#106
These are percentages by calories (which is why they correspond to dry weights.) People are actually believing that 15% of a tomato is protein.

Even if you feel that the recommended amount of protein is too high, then 3000 calories of plants only is unlikely to provide enough protein for long term health. People living off only vegetables will probably feel great in the short term but it's the long term accumulative damage which will stack up.

As for curing cancer, the smartest dead skinny guy in the room treated his cancer with a raw food only vegan diet. Steve Jobs had the only kind of pancreatic cancer which was curable. He decided to treat it with a raw food diet and all sorts of hokey alternative therapies. It didn't stop it spreading to his liver and eventually killing him.

Anyway, I have things to do now and I will (probably) be back later.

Fleur
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Aug 6 2014 14:24

Just one more thing though - vitamin D.
People in the UK are at risk from vitamin D deficiency because there isn't enough sunshine. It's fine in the summer, when you have exposed skin but during the rest of the year, especially under cloudy skies, you're not going to absorb enough. In my part of the world, it is estimated that anyone living above Washington DC are potentially Vit D deprived. Even here, where winter sun is the norm (and we're a lot further south than the UK) people need to supplement.

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Mr. Jolly
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Aug 6 2014 15:23
Fleur wrote:
Just one more thing though - vitamin D.
People in the UK are at risk from vitamin D deficiency because there isn't enough sunshine. It's fine in the summer, when you have exposed skin but during the rest of the year, especially under cloudy skies, you're not going to absorb enough. In my part of the world, it is estimated that anyone living above Washington DC are potentially Vit D deprived. Even here, where winter sun is the norm (and we're a lot further south than the UK) people need to supplement.

As a slight aside from my sneering about this thread, Vitamin D and B12 should be supplemented if your on a plant based diet. Ive never done it for 30 years but evidence (esp. B12) has convinced me otherwise.

As for Cronometer thing had a look, looking at the nutritional breakdown of my usual lunch of dall and chapatti and its lists red lentils as containing the complete set of amino acids, says the same about oyster mushrooms???!!! Pinch of salt I think.

**edit**
Ah lentils contain all 9 essential amino acids but certains ones are quite low so you would have to eat a stack of them to get your complete protein for the day.... Same for pretty much everything else.

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Aug 6 2014 15:03

Well Fleur, I already do eat beans and a small amount of nuts but the point of my above post was to show that on a normal day I easily make my RDA of protein even without them. Also, I don't spend any time at all monitoring my nutrition - I did it for a month and found that every single day I was WAY OVER on everything apart from B12, D and fat. After that I've just freestyled it as I eat a good variation of food in large amounts every day. Honestly, this is so easy to do. Once you have done your shopping there's nothing to it. Hardly any cooking and the cooking I do is dead simple and quick - a pot, a pan, a knife and a chopping board for most meals.
I see no long term negative consequences of this but plenty of positive ones.
I'm going to try to step away from this now. As I've said several times, I've made no claims other than those of my own experience. I am achieving the requirements suggested by conventional health organisations and am absolutely thriving. Considering these facts I find the opposition that I get to this from all sides absolutely fucking staggering and it's starting to do my nut in. I think I'll just get on with it and shut the fuck up!

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Kureigo-San
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Aug 6 2014 15:29

"Steve Jobs had the only kind of pancreatic cancer which was curable. He decided to treat it with a raw food diet and all sorts of hokey alternative therapies. It didn't stop it spreading to his liver and eventually killing him."

I don't think a plant based diet is a total panacea - one of my good friends was diagnosed with lymphatic cancer despite being on the plants for 2 years.

My participation here is starting to get me a bit down, so I'll be taking a leaf out of Webby's book and getting on with it.

Fleur
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Aug 7 2014 14:00

This would be why I was reluctant to get drawn into another bloody argument where people post up youtube videos and junk science in lieu of any compelling argument, although to be fair videos of buff people doing athletics is marginally more entertaining than anything produced by the Zeitgeist Movement.

Quote:
Do you think that Kwashiorkor and Marasmus could happen to people who ate a vegan, plant-based diet, long-term?

Obviously not, because no human society has ever lived entirely off a vegan, plant based diet. Human beings have been cooking food ever since we used our really big brains and opposable thumbs to discover how to make fire and tools.Not even remote cultures who live in jungles where fruit is dropping from the trees around them live entirely off an uncooked, raw vegan diet. The nearest equivalent would be gorillas, who do spend the bulk of their time grazing on a raw vegan diet. They do however spend pretty much all of their time just sitting around, which in my opinion is not a bad way to spend your life, but ultimately no matter how hard I would strive for that one I would find it pretty much undoable. They also have brains which are about a third of the size of humans, so they need less nutrition to feed them. And as far as I know there has been no longitudinal study of people on a raw food vegan diet, not surprisingly because most people quit it after a few years, either because of health problems or because it's just so time consuming and difficult to carry on. Even Harley "30 bananas a day" Durianrider admits that he has cooked food in his diet.

Some of the claims of the raw food diet just border on the absurd. Some claim that cutting vegetables destroy nutrients ( I side-eyed that one so fast I nearly detached a retina.) All that woo about live food and dead food for one thing, as if an uncooked vegetable is any more alive than a cooked one and even if it was it wouldn't survive very long in the hydrochloric acid in your stomach. Also, that cooking "kills" the food and destroys the nutrients. Sure, you lose some vitamins when cooking, like vit c but plants are so rich in them as long as they aren't boiled to death then there are plenty left to nourish you. Cooking of some vegetables improves their nutritional values. Cooked tomatoes release more antioxidants than raw ones. Cooking breaks down fibre and cellular walls making more of the nutrients available - human beings cannot digest cellulose. Cows can but they have extra stomachs to do so. If you cook a carrot there is more beta-carotens available for your body to absorb.
Cooking does destroy plant enzymes but so does the acid in the human gut. That is why we produce enzymes to digest and convert the food into nutrients. The enzyme theory used by raw diet advocates is based on research from the 1920s, which has been well and truly debunked.
Oh yeah, the worst kept secret of the raw vegan movement is the appalling dental health a lot of the adherents have, mostly from the constant sloshing of sugar in the mouth (sugar from a banana is no better than refined sugar) and the acid erosion from raw foods. Have a couple of raw vegan testimonies.
http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/01/24/dental-drama-tooth-problems-on-the-raw-diet-part-1/#more-57
http://renegadehealth.com/blog/raw-foodists-have-bad-teeth

Seriously, it's exactly this sort of shit which give vegans a bad name.

Quote:
I don't think a plant based diet is a total panacea

So you've backtracked (maybe got better informed?) from your post#17 where you said

Quote:
Cancer is our most popular apology for animal experimentation but the answer has been growing on trees the whole time.

Or when you were entertaining the idea that raw veganism might be a solution to HIV or when you were promoting Peta's favourite pet Neil Barnard as a solution to diabetes?
Human beings have a myriad of health problems, many of them caused partly- but not entirely- by poor diet. Looking for a magic bullet solution to this is just a little bit infantile and simplistic.

Incidentally, there has been an increase in what is considered a relatively new eating disorder, called orthorexia. I'm not suggesting that all raw food vegans have this but endless youtube videos of people with bugger all body fat, banging on about the largely unsubstantiated health claims, is probably just as unhelpful as size zero fashion models.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/aug/16/orthorexia-mental-health-eating-disorder

Standfield
I honestly have no idea about food combining. I combine my foods into delicious meals, using herbs, spices, all sorts of clever techniques invented by big brained humans like fermentation ( incidentally the only way to make soy fully digestible) and fire and it works well for me. I don't eat more than I need, mostly from plants, very few processed foods and I don't have a sweet tooth so excess sugar isn't that much of a problem. I'm 5'7", 136 pounds and very active, with no obvious health problems. It's most likely not going to cure cancer though, so I'm obviously doing it wrong.

So I thought I'd leave with a youtube video I found, which is very illuminating. It promises to open your eye and about half way through explains how to cure digestive problems. Enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahcDdDZavs0

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Kureigo-San
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Aug 7 2014 14:38

Backtracking? If you don't permit someone to learn and develop nuance..

A video showing simply that it's possible to be a vegan and perform high level sports isn't the same as the holy trinity, or crystal healing. Not even in the same ball park. You're confusing the intent of my video posting with one that tries to show it's the best way to be.

I'm not even against cooking. I do it all the time.

I'm sure you'll get a lot of up votes anyway - you really showed me, after all.

Fleur
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Aug 7 2014 15:33

So, you're not on the 80:10:10 diet that you alluded to in the earlier part of the thread, which is only really doable on a raw vegan diet,as if you're eating a traditional vegan diet ie with pulses, grains & beans, you will get more than 10% protein in your diet. And you keep linking to videos, like the diabetic banana boy, which espouses the raw diet.

My point with the crystal healing video is that anyone can put up a video on youtube and make all kinds of claims, and even believe them. It's hardly a substitute for any empirical research.

And I never said you couldn't be fit on a vegan diet, although some of the health nuts who post up videos look like something from the Bodyworlds exhibitions and I doubt if that is in any way long-term sustainable.

I could post up videos of my own, of one of my team-mates, who does marathons, spartan races and has videos of himself doing all kinds of extreme, macho stuff and could your videos a run for their money. He usually goes for a post match cheeseburger. You know, energy in, energy out.

Personally, I'm in far better shape now than I was when I was vegan, mostly because I do a shit-ton more running about. However, when I start my new job, which is going to involve an hour & a half commute and I'm going to spend 3 hours a day sitting on my ass in traffic, I know my health and fitness is going to go down the tubes because, like most people I won't have the time and energy to obsess about my health.

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Standfield
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Aug 7 2014 18:03
Fleur wrote:

Standfield
I honestly have no idea about food combining. I combine my foods into delicious meals, using herbs, spices, all sorts of clever techniques invented by big brained humans like fermentation ( incidentally the only way to make soy fully digestible) and fire and it works well for me. I don't eat more than I need, mostly from plants, very few processed foods and I don't have a sweet tooth so excess sugar isn't that much of a problem. I'm 5'7", 136 pounds and very active, with no obvious health problems. It's most likely not going to cure cancer though, so I'm obviously doing it wrong.

So I thought I'd leave with a youtube video I found, which is very illuminating. It promises to open your eye and about half way through explains how to cure digestive problems. Enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahcDdDZavs0

Fucking hell, I realise it must be tiring writing your long messages on this rotten corpse of a thread, but lay off the patronising and the sarcasm, I was just asking a question and I've think you've misunderstood my intentions.

Basically, I heard that if you take vitamin x, it could stop the absorption of vitamin y, and if the website that Webby linked to takes this into account. I was wondering if you knew anything about this, as you seem to be quite clued up on this stuff, and I am not. But you don't, so fair enough.

Shame about the cancer thing - don't know how I going to break it to my family that nan's not cured after all despite all of the seaweed smoothies I've been giving her. Thank fuck I can still rely on those crystals though, that round trip to Glastonbury village cost a fucking fortune.

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Aug 8 2014 06:27
Fleur wrote:
So I thought I'd leave with a youtube video I found, which is very illuminating. It promises to open your eye and about half way through explains how to cure digestive problems. Enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahcDdDZavs0

Oh my God, the eyes. The eyes say so much!

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Kureigo-San
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Aug 8 2014 11:33

"I could post up videos of my own, of one of my team-mates, who does marathons, spartan races and has videos of himself doing all kinds of extreme, macho stuff and could your videos a run for their money. He usually goes for a post match cheeseburger. You know, energy in, energy out."

Again, the intent of posting the vegan guy doing high level calisthenics was to counter the belief that you can't be vegan and be strong. And that's what it does, quite successfully. That's fundamentally different in purpose than if you posted the kind of video you're talking about - because no one on this earth doubts you can eat cheeseburgers and be strong. Do you understand what I'm saying?

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jef costello
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Aug 8 2014 12:00
plasmatelly wrote:
But you're only a couple of posts away from sounding like Jamie Oliver mate!

This is a non-flaming forum. Please try to be constructive rather than insulting towards other posters.

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Jun 15 2016 07:07

I know this will be water off a ducks back to most but I hope it at least gets some people thinking differently.

Quote:
I attended my first slaughterhouse vigil today. Words can not convey the emotions I'm feeling. I watched as truck, after truck, after truck, crammed tightly with pigs, were transported to their brutal death. I was able to give some of them water, stroke their faces and look into their haunted eyes. I told them I loved them and I was sorry. I asked for forgiveness for my complicity for so many years and promised to fight for their sisters and brothers. At one point a large tanker pulled in and I was told that was the vehicle that takes away their blood. This particular death chamber kill
s 10,000 beings EVERY day! What kind of a world are we living in where such things are possible? One day we will look back on these barbaric times with shame and disgust. Many thanks to Toronto Pig Save for organizing these vigils. We must bear witness to these atrocities, and do everything we can to stop it.

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Jun 15 2016 10:09

George Jackson once wrote that the best way to change the errant behaviour of children is to make them feel ashamed of their errant behaviour.

Here is a great vegan dish I prepared last night:

Yemeni Flatbread with Zhoug

To make zhoug grind 3 tomatoes, 6 red chillis, parsley, coriander, a tablespoon of ground coriander, a teaspoon of ground carraway (I used cumin), a teaspoon of ground cardamon, salt, pepper, oil and lemon juice to taste.

To make the Flatbread (it is similar to Ethiopian bread – more pancake than bread – except that it's made with the Asiatic grain wheat not the African grain teff) take two cups of flour and mix with a teaspoon of sugar, 3 tablespoons of oil, 1/2 teaspoon salt and a cup of water. In half a cup of lukewarm water mix in two sachets of dried yeast and set aside 5-10 minutes until it is frothy. Mix this with the dough. Leave covered in a warm place for 1 hour. Mix and leave one more hour. Heat small frying pan or skillet to a low temperature and add one label full of the mixture. Cook for 8 minutes without turning. Eat and enjoy.

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Noah Fence
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Jun 15 2016 10:15

Do you eat a vegan diet or do you just enjoy some vegan recipes?

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Schmoopie
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Jun 15 2016 10:27

Sometimes on the wagon, sometimes off.

I know that animals are human and that I am inhuman to eat my fellow human being.

I also use that lame excuse that I do not control the production process. I even use the excuse that I am pandering to what my children desire even though I know that when they are truly hungry they will eat whatever food I serve them.

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Schmoopie
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Jun 15 2016 10:45

I saw this quote on a separate thread:

Quote:
It is only in communism that the Great Philosophy coincides with being in an organic circuit between the action of eating (today seen as trivial and unworthy of the spirit) and the action of respiring in the Spirit, conceived sublimely as truly worthy of the complete being, that is to say, God.

I don't know who said it but it seems relevant.

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Feb 9 2019 17:55

https://youtu.be/LL2cLhOqPsE

This is not an animal welfare film. There are others that cover that particular area of fucked up human behaviour, but I defy anyone to watch this all the way through and then deny that animal agriculture and the mass consumption of animal derived foods is a political issue, indeed to deny that its a class issue.
It’s not my intention to start another debate but things have moved on significantly in the last couple of years and mainstream science in both human health and environmental issues is on board with what those once considered whack jobs have been saying for years. It’s my hope that people will start to reconsider their position on this topic and the that scales will start to fall from the eyes of those who have thus far been dismissive of the significance of this to our politics.

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Feb 10 2019 07:15

Thank you for sharing this video. Most people agree that it's wrong to unnecessarily harm an animal. But we continue to kill them for unnecessary reasons. Animals are conscious, they have the capacity to suffer, and to enjoy life. They don't deserve to die when we have other options. I might be kind of bias, though, being a cat and all.

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Feb 10 2019 08:07
Quote:
I might be kind of bias, though, being a cat and all

Should be ‘biased’ comrade, not ‘bias’, plus it should have been a comma, not a full stop between ‘animal’ and ‘but’. Hopefully though, your apparent inferior intelligence won’t be seen as justification for killing and eating you!
I’ve heard that cats can also be vegan even though I’ve always thought of them as obligate carnivores. Perhaps you can let us know if you’re a meat eater, or do you condemn violet against animals for the provision of your food?

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Lucky Black Cat
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Feb 19 2019 07:12

Ah, a spelling/grammar nazi. No wonder you're vegan! wink

No, cats are obligate carnivores. But I only eat fascists, so it's still ethical.

Owentiffie
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Feb 22 2019 17:03
Quote:
"No, cats are obligate carnivores. But I only eat fascists, so it's still ethical."

Hah! That definitely made my day. smile

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Feb 25 2019 12:48

If you consume meat, dairy or eggs you need to watch this film. I’ll warn you, it’s seriously disturbing stuff but if you’re not prepared to watch you need to ask yourself the question...

IF IT’S NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOUR EYES, HOW CAN IT BE GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOUR PLATE?

This has to stop. Animal agriculture is causing the unimaginable suffering of billions of animals, heart disease, diabetes and cancer in millions of people, and the apocalyptic destruction of the environment. So much of this could be changed if the world adopted a plant based diet. It’s not just hippy cranks saying so either, it’s mainstream science too. The evidence is all in.
So can you justify all this coz animal products are convenient and taste good?

https://youtu.be/BrlBSuuy50Y