Libcom Admin Managerialism

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S. Artesian
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Jun 26 2016 03:45

Me too.

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Schmoopie
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Jun 26 2016 05:04

Serge:

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Some people do get offended though and argue that it's sexist.

It is not because it is "sexist" that the word is offensive. The way some of you use these terms – racist, sexist, whore phobic (a new one on me) – as defence mechanisms is reminiscent of an Evangelist clutching his bible at the sight of Rasta.

When a word is used to offend it will offend, and this word, because of it's sharpness is particularly effective at offending those susceptible to offence.

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Schmoopie
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Jun 26 2016 05:38

Perhaps the managerialism of libcom.org is just symptomatic of the general malaise of the communist/anarchist movement as a whole. When the river bursts it's banks, there's no channeling the water. That's something most comrades can't fathom.

Edited: My original post can still be viewed below.

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Noah Fence
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Jun 26 2016 05:32
Schmoopie wrote:
S.Artesian:

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Stalinoid smear artist.

Extra classic

Wow, I missed that. We should start a thread of leftist insults, although this will be hard to beat. Genius if somewhat Stalin-phobic.

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Schmoopie
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Jun 26 2016 05:42

Noah wrote:

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Genius if somewhat Stalin-phobic.

Don't, some people are still sleeping, and I have an urge to laugh!

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Noah Fence
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Jun 26 2016 05:53

Haha! In all seriousness though... er, no, scratch that. My beautiful brass steam punk style pomposometer already looks like it's about to blow a gasket!

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Schmoopie
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Jun 26 2016 06:08
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...leftist insults...

Your tongue is sharper than a two-edged sword.

For Charlie Chaplin fans:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=__f8ga98ufc

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Noah Fence
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Jun 26 2016 06:17

Can't watch that now - I'll wake Knitty Nelly up. Is it the famous speech?

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Serge Forward
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Jun 26 2016 07:32
S. Artesian wrote:
What a circus of bozos.

Do you have to be so rude all the time? The hoity toity condescending every other cunt knows fuckall shtick really isn't very comradely.

Aaaanyway... my son, little Serge, lived in Arizona for a while. He said people there were always shocked at his casual use of the word "cunt" so he ended up only using it in the company of friends in a nice way. He reckoned saying "cunt" might possibly get you shot dead there. I wondered if shooting someone dead might be seen as less offensive than saying "cunt" in Arizona. It's a strange world.

S. Artesian, playing semantics is tiresome. I'm pretty sure we all know what "phobia" means but as English is a continually developing living language that is not tied down by any regulatory body, then you can only go so far with etymology.

That said, I do find the current trend of adding "phobic" to social, political or religious categories somewhat tiresome and often a bit suspect. I know it's big in identity politics circles but I don't see why communists and anarchists have to join in as well.

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Noah Fence
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Jun 26 2016 08:11
Quote:
That said, I do find the current trend of adding "phobic" to social, political or religious categories somewhat tiresome and often a bit suspect. I know it's big in identity politics circles but I don't see why communists and anarchists have to join in as well.

Probably coz they're mostly a bunch of cunts.

petey
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Jun 26 2016 13:04

here in new yawk, 'cunt' is almost never heard, and carries no misogynistic meaning in my experience. it does fill a niche that other terms don't. a better question than what the use of 'cunt' might reveal about a speaker is why genital references are used this way at all. 'dick' and 'hard-on' aren't compliments either.

Serge Forward wrote:
S. Artesian wrote:
What a circus of bozos.

Do you have to be so rude all the time? The hoity toity condescending every other cunt knows fuckall shtick really isn't very comradely.

there have been more than a few posters here and on other roughly comparable sites who have good (imo) politics and from whom i've learned but who have been constantly arrogant and aggressive and have done more to divide what numbers we have than to unite. there's no explaining people but this approach is the exact opposite of what's needed.

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Auld-bod
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Jun 26 2016 13:32

petey #102
‘it does fill a niche that other terms don't.’

This is news to me, what niche are you referring to?

When I hear it I think - someone who speaks without thinking, or has a very limited vocabulary, or who thinks it helps their street cred, as it’s so terribly terribly workin’ class, init.
Patronising little shit is my reaction.

factvalue
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Jun 26 2016 13:56
Serge Forward wrote:
I mean, do you really think Steven meant it in the sense of "fear" of sex workers? Or are you just playing - what, at this point, has become pretty predictable – semantics?

That would be pertinent if semantics wasn't actually one of the main subjects of the thread. Whatever the sense in which Steven intended it, Serge, to whom the original post was addressed, already wrote that he didn't find what I'd written offensive. So where does this leave management's pretext for removing the exchange in question? Could the person responsible for this please come forward and address this very simple point?

Although there have been some interesting points raised, if I'd engaged in the distraction techniques on sale in this thread I'd either have been 'called' (talk about fucking dopey terminology) on it for 'derailing' or had my posts removed by management long since. What we have here is a bunch of people who feel that in the past they've been shown up as lacking in knowledge or use of logic one too many times by one or more other people, and are now doing the most predictable thing in the world for them to do, blatantly ganging together to attempt to get a little of their own back, how embarrassing.

Meanwhile, back at the OP…

1. Can the admin responsible for removing the exchange in question now come forward and defend their decision? Because if they don't, then, contrary to what the great jef has uttered forth concerning the contradiction involved in complaining about censorship on a site where complaints about censorship are allowed (that piece of illogic got a dozen 'up' votes last time I looked, an indicator of the level that some on here are operating on – being allowed to complain about power abuses is not quite the same as stopping them, is it? ) this discussion is a version of democratic window dressing similar to one of those management consultations with staff, to give them a feeling that they're somehow involved, after the decision has already been made.

2. On the specifics of the allegation, if this were not just lip-service, the mystery admin would by now have already addressed the following points that I've already raised:

(I) That I didn't mention anyone's mother, and so their 'reason' was at best pure interpretation

(ii) That I used the quotation 'the sordid whore' and not 'a sordid whore' which does not argue for the manager's interpretation , so again, why this interpretation?

(iii) If Steven has the 'whore-phobic' interpretation from this ghostly companion, how was my phrase 'whore phobic' since it doesn't describe all sex workers as 'sordid'. Are you Steven, on behalf of your client, claiming that it's impossible for sex workers to ever be sordid because they are sex workers? Because to me that sounds like it might emanate from phobia. And while we're on the subject of hypocrisy and double standards,

(iv) Steven's response has been to tell me to fuck right off. I think in this context that is an abuse of his position. Is telling someone to fuck right off abusive if I do it, or if Steven does it, both, or neither? Is telling someone to fuck right off for questioning a decision of 'the management' abusive/constitute managerialism? Is telling someone to fuck right off while threatening to bar them for being abusive, an indicator that the person making the threat has joined those others with axes to grind in abandoning the realm of reason and ethics?

(v) Did the admin behind this take an active part in the anti-Zionist thread, where all of this occurred i.e. was it really something as immature as bad tempered hard cheese after a spanking?

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Chilli Sauce
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Jun 26 2016 14:15

So, I just want to say, how prescient was I in back on page 1?

Quote:
I'm just waiting for S. Artesian to get involved, get hung up on one word someone posted pages back, and then accuse everyone of putting their self-interest before that of the working class by being complicit in EU crimes

Also, Artesian, if this is you "bringing your A-game"....

Quote:
You can think whatever you want, but you clearly don't know what the fuck you are talking about in using the terms you use.

Anyway,

Quote:
here in new yawk, 'cunt' is almost never heard, and carries no misogynistic meaning in my experience.

I don't know, I often see "cunt" reserved for the 'worst type of woman' in the same way that "bitch" is. Not always, but I do think there's some inherent misogyny when "dick" and can be used pretty casually but "the c-word" is considered the worst of the worst. Even "pussy" is considered a much more offensive word - and has a clear-cut meaning of weakness - than "prick" or "cock" or whatever.

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Serge Forward
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Jun 26 2016 14:28
factvalue wrote:
Serge Forward wrote:
I mean, do you really think Steven meant it in the sense of "fear" of sex workers? Or are you just playing - what, at this point, has become pretty predictable – semantics?

Dunno why you're attributing that quote to me. It was Chilli Sauce said that???

S. Artesian
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Jun 26 2016 14:44
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So, I just want to say, how prescient was I in back on page 1?

Not too, since I didn't get hung up on the word at all, you did, others did. I pointed out what a joke the word is applied to the specific matter under discussion, how it had nothing to do with fv's post, and how Steven was using it as an ideological justification for his threat to ban fv.

Those actions, threats, that use of ideology to rationalize arbitrary and nonsensical threats, are the "hang-ups." Nice to know that you're not hung up on any of that. No surprise.

S. Artesian
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Jun 26 2016 14:57
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here in new yawk, 'cunt' is almost never heard, and carries no misogynistic meaning in my experience. it does fill a niche that other terms don't. a better question than what the use of 'cunt' might reveal about a speaker is why genital references are used this way at all. 'dick' and 'hard-on' aren't compliments either.

Disagree. Lived in NYC 40 years, and worked in the railroad industry where harsh language is almost mandatory-- every other syllable in everyday "non-meeting" discourse begins with "fuck" or "fucking..." As in "that fucking idiot fucking con-fucking-ductor backed the fucking train right into the fucking Bumper-fucking- block and de-fucking-railed." (Statement accuracy guaranteed because I said it).

But "cunt" was almost never heard precisely because it carries such a radical misogynistic and demeaning meaning. Any male calling another male a "cunt" to his face can expect, and is stating he's ready, for a physical reply. I've only heard males use it in reference to females when furious beyond all reason over some action or statement of the woman. And women using it against other women? My "sample size" is too limited to make any determination.

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Noah Fence
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Jun 26 2016 15:00

FV - I think the simple answer to your somewhat more sophisticated line of questioning is easy;

The jumped up admins have fucked up and will go to any lengths to cover it up. I believe I once started a thread on this very phenomenon, namely, the common practice of people that are clearly wrong making twats of themselves by performing ludicrous social gymnastics as a method of denying it. The longer you persist the more daft they'll look but really, is it worth it. I mean, fuck em.
As for all the rest of the gubbins here, it's all just peripheral nonsense which to some degree at least has been stretched out and embellished by some posters either consciously or subconsciously to protect those that they have pledged an allegiance to like the dumbfuck royalists waving their little Union Jack's outside Buckingham Palace on the queens birthday. It's like a fucking comic tragedy really.

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Chilli Sauce
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Jun 26 2016 15:27
Serge Forward wrote:
S. Artesian wrote:
What a circus of bozos.

Do you have to be so rude all the time? The hoity toity condescending every other cunt knows fuckall shtick really isn't very comradely.

Aaaanyway... my son, little Serge, lived in Arizona for a while. He said people there were always shocked at his casual use of the word "cunt" so he ended up only using it in the company of friends in a nice way. He reckoned saying "cunt" might possibly get you shot dead there. I wondered if shooting someone dead might be seen as less offensive than saying "cunt" in Arizona. It's a strange world.

S. Artesian, playing semantics is tiresome. I'm pretty sure we all know what "phobia" means but as English is a continually developing living language that is not tied down by any regulatory body, then you can only go so far with etymology.

That said, I do find the current trend of adding "phobic" to social, political or religious categories somewhat tiresome and often a bit suspect. I know it's big in identity politics circles but I don't see why communists and anarchists have to join in as well.

Just wanted to say, I thought this was a really good post.

petey
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Jun 26 2016 15:29
S. Artesian wrote:
Quote:
here in new yawk, 'cunt' is almost never heard, and carries no misogynistic meaning in my experience. it does fill a niche that other terms don't. a better question than what the use of 'cunt' might reveal about a speaker is why genital references are used this way at all. 'dick' and 'hard-on' aren't compliments either.

Disagree. Lived in NYC 40 years, and worked in the railroad industry where harsh language is almost mandatory-- every other syllable in everyday "non-meeting" discourse begins with "fuck" or "fucking..." As in "that fucking idiot fucking con-fucking-ductor backed the fucking train right into the fucking Bumper-fucking- block and de-fucking-railed." (Statement accuracy guaranteed because I said it).

But "cunt" was almost never heard precisely because it carries such a radical misogynistic and demeaning meaning. Any male calling another male a "cunt" to his face can expect, and is stating he's ready, for a physical reply. I've only heard males use it in reference to females when furious beyond all reason over some action or statement of the woman. And women using it against other women? My "sample size" is too limited to make any determination.

that new york must be a big place, that two people in it (59 years in my case) can have different experiences.

factvalue
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Jun 26 2016 15:29
Serge Forward wrote:
factvalue wrote:
Serge Forward wrote:
I mean, do you really think Steven meant it in the sense of "fear" of sex workers? Or are you just playing - what, at this point, has become pretty predictable – semantics?

Dunno why you're attributing that quote to me. It was Chilli Sauce said that???

You're quite right, apologies Serge. You see phantom admin, it's not so hard is it?

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Serge Forward
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Jun 26 2016 15:31

Noah, you used to be a bit of a laff on here. What happened? Have I missed something because you seem a bit bitter these days?

syndicalist
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Jun 26 2016 15:37
Quote:
But "cunt" was almost never heard precisely because it carries such a radical misogynistic and demeaning meaning. Any male calling another male a "cunt" to his face can expect, and is stating he's ready, for a physical reply. I've only heard males use it in reference to females when furious beyond all reason over some action or statement of the woman. And women using it against other women? My "sample size" is too limited to make any determination..

Completely agree with above sentiments.

Not a word we use here. It's pretty amazing that it is used as commonly as it is in jolly ole.....

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Chilli Sauce
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Jun 26 2016 15:37
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That I used the quotation 'the sordid whore' and not 'a sordid whore' which does not argue for the manager's interpretation

More semantics, I see.

I mean, really, do you think there's a difference between "a [racial epitaph]" and "the [racial epitaph]"? Because, I assure you, it's wasn't your choice of article that got your post edited.

Quote:
was it really something as immature as bad tempered hard cheese after a spanking?

I do want to say kudos on this, though. No idea what it means - perhaps it's another medieval text reference a la Ignatius J. Reilly - but what a corker!

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Jun 26 2016 15:41
Serge Forward wrote:
Noah, you used to be a bit of a laff on here. What happened? Have I missed something because you seem a bit bitter these days?

Lack of meat and dairy in the diet wink

factvalue
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Jun 26 2016 15:48

Thanks for your comment about semantics, after such a protracted discussion from all sides over semantics I find it most extraordinarily perceptive and interesting, you won't forget to make it again at some point will you, that wouldn't be like you.

On the second one, if you read the thread you'll observe certain parties receiving a good old verbal hiding and then slinking off, have another look and see if this helps in disentangling that last linguistic web I spun to deliberately confuse you - I don't think you can put this one down to US v UK English btw, wow!

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Jun 26 2016 15:55

Serge - I think I may of caught a troll virus! But bitter? Not a chance. I thought I was still having a laugh as I've always done - take a seed of truth then throw the kitchen sink at it. Or maybe I'm just a shit comic.
All that said, I've either become more aware of it or a level of duplicity and disingenuousness has developed that riles me somewhat, but honestly I've got infinitely bigger fish to fry in my life right now than a few numpties on the Internet.

Gulai Polye
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Jun 26 2016 16:14
Noah Fence wrote:
All that said, I've either become more aware of it or a level of duplicity and disingenuousness has developed that riles me somewhat, but honestly I've got infinitely bigger fish to fry in my life right now than a few numpties on the Internet.

Nice, what do you use as bait? grin

What do u mean with disingenuousness?

S. Artesian
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Jun 26 2016 16:24

FV,

Here's the skinny on all this sound and fury:

1. be more cognizant of wasting admin time-- that is admin as a collective. The fact that admin Steven intervened on "his own dime" as we say here in the land of "no cunt" is immaterial. Some admin somewhere might have had to respond and the fact that responding to members inquiries is part of the "job description" for admin status is no excuse for requesting, much less, requiring that the admin, as a category, do its job. Got that? Good. Let's move on.

2. "Minstrel blood of the sordid whore" is unacceptable in exchanges between participants according to the admin whom you are never to bother further with requests for an explanation.

3. "Minstrel blood of the sordid whore" is unacceptable because it is offensive, abusive to women (yes women, clearly). You have artificially assigned "sordid whore" to the female population based on the issue of "minstrel blood." Therefore, it is a sexist remark, unfairly attributing menstruation solely to women. This distinguishes the use of this offensive phrase from use of the word "cunt" which is not sexist, offensive, abusive or female phobic, in that anyone can be a cunt, and... with enough surgery and proper insurance, anyone can have a cunt. Therefore, in future exchanges, please arrange to refer to the "virtual blood of the sordid surgically enhanced cunt" and all will be hunky dory, peachy keen, right as rain, and top of the morning.

4. S. Artesian, with playing the usual semantic card, liked your phrase because of the image it evoked of thousands of red blood cells and platelets all made-up in blackface, and singing a chorus of "Mammy." Only a racist cunt could infer that image from the one you intended. Be careful of the company you keep. And never, ever ask "why?"

Fleur
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Jun 26 2016 16:28

Jesus fucking christ on a cracker, is there anything more fucking ridiculous that a bunch of people arguing about the use of the phrase minstrel blood of the sordid whore.? 120 fucking posts!
You know it's Summer right now? Why don't you all go out and play. Haven't any of you fuckers got anything better to do?