The Socialist Party Vs Anarchists debate - Walthamstow - 7th June

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TheUnderground
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Apr 27 2007 10:15
The Socialist Party Vs Anarchists debate - Walthamstow - 7th June

The Walthamstow, East London branch of TSP have offered two possible dates for Anarchists to debate againsts them and argue the case for Anarchism over "Socialism",

The two dates are:

24th May

or

7th June

Who would be able to make what dates? Then we can choose one of them.

Anyone/everyone please speak to whever you can so we have some good numbers to kick their arse with.

Cheers,

Admin - details are as follows:
7th June, Starts at 7.30pm at the William Morris Community Centre, Greenleaf rd, E17

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Jacques Roux
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Apr 27 2007 10:20

reply below with a subject line which makes sense and the thread will be moved back to the right forum, read the below thread (which you should have read anyway).

http://libcom.org/forums/events-and-announcements/event-name--place--date-please-follow-these-guidelines

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Tacks
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Apr 27 2007 11:01

who have they offered it to, exactly?

i'd be very wary tbh. Trots live for this kind of thing - if i wanted to debate any trot group in the country i could just write to them now, promise them an audience and they'd pay their travel to turn up. Its pretty much the zenith of their being.

I'm not saying you won't 'beat' them, but remember a lot of what we know about their 'socialism' they won't admit, and bringing it up can make you sound like a boring and or mad bastard - leninism, reformism etc. Being in meetings with the CPGB recently you'd have thought they were fucking anarchists, and the trots were trying to out-anarchist them. None of them mentioned parties, none mentioned democratic centralism or anything like that.

TheUnderground
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Apr 27 2007 14:50

reply below with a subject line which makes sense and the thread will be moved back to the right forum, read the below thread (which you should have read anyway).

http://libcom.org/forums/events-and-announcements/event-name--place--date-please-follow-these-guidelines

No idea how this quote thing works.

I cant put a date because we havnt chosen one, location, we dont have exact details but i think it will be walthamstow somewhere.

Someone wanna change the title then?

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Jacques Roux
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Apr 27 2007 15:14

I have moved it to the london forum instead, decide what you are doing and then when you are ready you can announce an event. You cannot hope to get people to come if you dont even know when or where it is yourself.

Btw a suitable thread title may have been:

London: Socialist Party vs. Anarchists Debate, Date TBA

But as Tacks said - who are you? who have they offered it to? whats the point? etc. etc.

tigersiskillers
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Apr 27 2007 16:23

As well as looking at the texts above, I'd also have a think about the kind of stuff they're likely to throw up. I've never been involved in a debate like this, but have had arguments with individual trots (experiences that would make me severely doubt the worth of participating in this kind of debate to be honest). The stuff I've had thrown at me include

> Anarchism not being a coherent theory

In some senses true in that 'anarchism' is used as a title by a broad range of people (most of whom are admittedly idiots), but within that there are of course strands that have strong internal coherence.

> Anarchism being anti-organisational

Stupid, but they seem to think it's true. I've even seen the phrase 'tyranny of structurelessness' thrown around despite it coming from an anarcha-feminist's critique of rubbish structureless groups.

> Bakunin being in favour of secret conspiratorial nonsense/Proudhon being anti-semitic etc.

So what? In any case Bakunin's occasional bouts of secret squirrel fantasies didn't stop him nailing the consequences of authoritarian socialism pretty comprehensively.

> Anarchism is a petty bourgeois ideology

Hilarious. The phrase gets dredged up without any real understanding of what they are saying and why. As if we get all our ideas from Proudhon.
Other things - try not to get too bogged down in the historical if there are many people present who aren't partisan in the debate, it gets a bit boring to scream "Kronstadt!" at Trots all the time (not that it can't be fun or make an important point on occasion) and says little to people about the here and now. Having said that, it is useful to be able to point out the plain reality of Leninism.

Having read Marx helps, as a large number of trots don't seem to have, or at most have read the little potted guide to the particular interpretation their group subscribes to.

Read the anarchist FAQ too. Well, at least the anarchism/marxism bits.

ftony
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Apr 27 2007 16:25

aye, that brinton piece is masterful cool

i'd echo tacks - it's best to be wary. either a really good, knowledgeable and argumentative anarchist who can hold their own does this debate, or no-one at all. i certainly wouldn't like to do it!

knightrose
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Apr 27 2007 21:47

Which Socialist Party? The ex-miltant trots or the SPGB?

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oisleep
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Apr 28 2007 07:36

admin - unsubstantiated claim removed

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Bubbles
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Apr 28 2007 08:56

roll eyes

these "underground" folks are quite silly.

roll eyes

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Tacks
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Apr 28 2007 08:57

admin - snip

Tacks's picture
Tacks
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Apr 28 2007 09:01
ftony wrote:
aye, that brinton piece is masterful cool

yes - it'd be great for smashing the historical certainties of some trots, but it wouldn't be great for a room of people who aren't going 'anarcho-syndicalist vs trotskyist' but Anarchist vs. Socialist. The SP would be mad to even get into the history of it all, they have quite a bit going on themselves - i'm sure they'd talk abou the present.

In which case the main argument would be - we have these positions in the union, these councillors here, this guy in the irish parliament, these campaigns - what do you have?

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JoeMaguire
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Apr 28 2007 09:04

Luigi Fabbri is worth looking at, he did an excellent pamphlet exposing bolshevism.

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thugarchist
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Apr 28 2007 09:06

Debunking political rivals is the last stop before total irrelevancy.

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Tacks
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Apr 28 2007 09:15
october_lost wrote:
Luigi Fabbri is worth looking at, he did an excellent pamphlet exposing bolshevism.

i refer back to all my posts in this thread.

If it gets down to arguing about historical bolshevism, you've all lost.

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Apr 28 2007 09:16
thugarchist wrote:
Debunking political rivals is the last stop before total irrelevancy.

hopefully the underground will disband and then give all their resources to freedom (the news paper).

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Bubbles
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Apr 28 2007 09:17
Tacks wrote:
what do you have?

a funny looking paper that we distro on the metro....

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thugarchist
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Apr 28 2007 09:21
x357997 wrote:
Tacks wrote:
what do you have?

a funny looking paper that we distro on the metro....

and a bag of stale bagels we liberated from the capitalists.

Debating isn't really about the rightness of your position. Its about how well you can present your ideas and at the same time drive your opponent into a defensive corner they can't get out of. Its a waste of time. Go build a movement based on your ideas.

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Tacks
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Apr 28 2007 09:45
thugarchist wrote:
Debating isn't really about the rightness of your position. Its about how well you can present your ideas and at the same time drive your opponent into a defensive corner they can't get out of.

i've been pretty good at it in school and i was nominated best speaker from the floor the other day in a debate with christians, but i've always preferred a good wank. I think i'm better at that too.

In all seriousness you should learn to debate, even if you build a movement you will still be debating every day, with people who want to know why you think this or that direction s is a good idea.

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thugarchist
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Apr 28 2007 09:50
Tacks wrote:
thugarchist wrote:
Debating isn't really about the rightness of your position. Its about how well you can present your ideas and at the same time drive your opponent into a defensive corner they can't get out of.

i've been pretty good at it in school and i was nominated best speaker from the floor the other day in a debate with christians, but i've always preferred a good wank. I think i'm better at that too.

In all seriousness you should learn to debate, even if you build a movement you will still be debating every day, with people who want to know why you think this or that direction s is a good idea.

Yeah yeah. The point was that it is productive to put your ideas into action constructively and its unproductive to engage the authoritarian left thus equalizing them and their ideas.

Debating skills are good to have. I love the conflict personally. However, debating skills are more or less completely useless in organizing.

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Tacks
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Apr 28 2007 10:31


what kind of skills do you have?

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thugarchist
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Apr 28 2007 10:37
Tacks wrote:

what kind of skills do have?

Skills do have?

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Bubbles
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Apr 28 2007 10:45
thugarchist wrote:
Tacks wrote:

what kind of skills do have?

Skills do have?

picture dont work...

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thugarchist
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Apr 28 2007 10:48

I can see it. confused

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Bubbles
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Apr 28 2007 10:53
thugarchist wrote:
I can see it. confused

erm...maby cuz its tripod...you should try photobucket....

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thugarchist
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Apr 28 2007 10:56
x357997 wrote:
thugarchist wrote:
I can see it. confused

erm...maby cuz its tripod...you should try photobucket....

Better?

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Bubbles
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Apr 28 2007 11:19
thugarchist wrote:
x357997 wrote:
thugarchist wrote:
I can see it. confused

erm...maby cuz its tripod...you should try photobucket....

Better?

much laugh out loud laugh out loud laugh out loud

hairmonster85
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Apr 29 2007 13:30

perhaps they organised it out of spite, as they seem to be losing a few members who realise that anarchism has a lot on reformist leninism (at least three that i know of, including meself)

perhaps anyone who´s going could mention their support for the police, their lack of internal democracy, and lots of other stuff which they don´t want non-members to find out

hm85
reluctantly on family holiday in ibiza

ps does anyone know if the CNT have members in Ibiza? if so, let us know

TheUnderground
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Apr 29 2007 16:17

Yes they are the ex-militant trots.

Who am I? I am an Ararchist, hence I wont be on the side of TSP

Is debating with them a bad idea or something? What's your problem?

Just want to know which date would be preferable and would anyone here be able to make it, surely that's not too tough to understand?

jack white
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Apr 29 2007 17:13

heres an account of a wsm / socialist party debate: http://www.anarkismo.net/newswire.php?story_id=2360
theres links to the text of contributions from both sides, might be useful for you

throwhen
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Apr 29 2007 17:31

debating fellow lefty's does not help organize the working class who certainly don't pay attention to debates of leftist sects.

go organize a union, tenents group, consume boycott. etc. anything interesting that betters the lot of the class.