Jewish left wing Website.

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Big Brother
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Sep 12 2006 18:12
Jewish left wing Website.

At last somebody talking sense, they even slates the Swppies for backing the wrong side. I stumble across this link and it seems a well balance appraisal and even a link for Jewish anarchist history. The site isn't too big and worth a poke. http://www.left-wing.net/index.htm

Benjamin Franks
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Sep 13 2006 12:08

It is a good site, but are they actually doing any activity outside of cyberspace?

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Jacques Roux
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Sep 13 2006 12:13

I posted about this a while ago i think, have a search it should be around here somewhere

Charlie42
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Sep 13 2006 14:12

Be interested to meet people behind the site. I'm in the Jewish Socialists' Group, which is active on Middle East, anti-war and anti-racist fronts, we have a magazine Jewish Socialist and website http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/index.html, but we are still a small group and could do with new, particularly younger members.
We work with Just Peace UK and Jews for Justice for Palestinians, and with a bit of luck you may see our banners on demos, but as for this other group, nobody seems to have come across more than their website or to recognise any of their names. Perhaps they are newcomers here - I noticed occasional mistakes in their English. Also expressions like "Eretz Yisrael" which one normally associates with religious Jews or Zionists, but I'm not accusing them, it might just be their background. Whatever their particular flavour or ideas, wherever they are coming from, we're always glad of allies and don't claim any monopoly on political wisdom, so guess we'll just have to see and hear from them.

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Steven.
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Sep 13 2006 14:21

alright charlie, I wondered if any jewish socialist group types were on here. i know one libcom group member, Ed, knows some of you guys, so welcome to the boards!

Moshehess
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Sep 13 2006 14:25

Yo,

I just saw this forum. I am doing the emails for left-wing.net and just signed up for a libcom account.

In terms of activity I and two other from the Jewish LW are going with a group of others to a protest in the West Bank soon.

We dont do anything in our name because that just leads to sectarian stuff so we just support others like Anarchists Against the Wall.

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Steven.
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Sep 13 2006 14:33

You guys are based in the US right?

Big Brother
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Sep 13 2006 17:22

Weird! Two newcomers, freaky but welcome on board. "cough!" I am amaze by my psychic ability to predict newcomer’s personal preferences in topical subject areas.

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Anarchia
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Sep 14 2006 05:23

We're working on a similar thing (by the sounds of it, although no online presence yet) over here - a few friends formed a group called Aotearoa Jews For Justice (cheesy name, I know) a few weeks ago, and we've had more interest than expected from the (relatively small) community across the country.

As for radical Jewish perspectives on socialist positions on the war, I wrote a peace on it for a local magazine called My Enemy's Enemy Is Sure As Hell Not My Comrade which you can read at http://anarchia.wordpress.com/2006/08/29/my-enemys-enemy-sure-as-hell-isnt-my-comrade/

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Alf
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Sep 14 2006 23:01

Sorry, but I can't see any reason for 'Jewish' socialists to organise separately. And when they do, they most often seem to be looking for a 'Jewish' version of leftism (i.e. Trotskyism or other left wing nationalist ideologies). I'm speaking as someone who went through a 'Borochovist' phase a long time ago, so I'm not unaware of some of the sentiments that push people in that direction, but I think it's a dead end. Communism is the abolition of nations and the class struggle is fundamentally anti-national.

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pepe carvalho
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Sep 14 2006 23:17
Alf wrote:
Sorry, but I can't see any reason for 'Jewish' socialists to organise separately. And when they do, they most often seem to be looking for a 'Jewish' version of leftism (i.e. Trotskyism or other left wing nationalist ideologies). I'm speaking as someone who went through a 'Borochovist' phase a long time ago, so I'm not unaware of some of the sentiments that push people in that direction, but I think it's a dead end. Communism is the abolition of nations and the class struggle is fundamentally anti-national.

yeah! sock it to 'em man! ICC numbnut! a bunch of jews want to organise against the war and fascism and some of the islamist idiocies of some on the left, sort your self out

fairplay to 'em, who cares if it's not the pure 'communist' line.

a group of people organising along a particular criteria doesnt stop them organising along class lines as well

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Steven.
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Sep 15 2006 12:57

Yeah, I can see the point of people of a similar culture running projects together. I mean there used to be a big tradition of socialism in Jewish communities, so people would get involved with it just because it was normal; this is a good thing. I don't think it helped alienate Jews from the rest of society - it's not like it's the equivalent of black nationalism or anything.

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the button
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Sep 15 2006 13:00
Alf wrote:
a 'Jewish' version of leftism (i.e. Trotskyism or other left wing nationalist ideologies

What's specifically Jewish about Trotskyism, Alf?

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Serge Forward
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Sep 15 2006 13:05

Heh heh... surely it couldn't be because Trotsky was a jew??? And there was I naively thinking the ICC had transcended all the nationalist crud. roll eyes

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Serge Forward
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Sep 15 2006 13:12
Jack wrote:
I mean if Islamic socialists decided to organise separately, it'd be bollocks.

But as far as I can see, Jewish socialists aren't organising as religious jews but as secular jews. The notion of an 'islamic socialist' group would not actually be secular as the term 'islamic' clearly implies they would be followers of Islam. Secular socialists from a muslim background would be a totally different matter.

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Steven.
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Sep 15 2006 13:12
Jack wrote:
Lenin was right about the Bund, and it remains the case.

I mean if Islamic socialists decided to organise separately, it'd be bollocks. I'm not saying it should be 'opposed', but I think Alf is right, it's a 'dead end'.

They're not organising, they're just doing a website. No big deal; it'd be like having a site for anarchist fans of the rolling stones or something, just a meaningless cultural thing.

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Demogorgon303
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Sep 15 2006 13:25
the button wrote:
What's specifically Jewish about Trotskyism, Alf?

SergeForward wrote:
Heh heh... surely it couldn't be because Trotsky was a jew??? And there was I naively thinking the ICC had transcended all the nationalist crud.

Oh come on, this really is a bit rubbish guys.

Alf wrote:
And when they do, they most often seem to be looking for a 'Jewish' version of leftism (i.e. Trotskyism or other left wing nationalist ideologies).

It's obvious he was clarifying what he went by leftism, not that there was anything specifically "Jewish" about Trotskyism etc.

As for "Jewish" socialism, I agree with Jack and Alf. The very idea is in continuity with the Jewish notion of separateness and being a "chosen" people; it encourages people to think of themselves as "Jews" first and workers/communists second and in doing so automatically excludes workers from other groups. How does this push forward the ever-growing unity of the working class?

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the button
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Sep 15 2006 13:36
Demogorgon303 wrote:
Oh come on, this really is a bit rubbish guys.

Alf wrote:
And when they do, they most often seem to be looking for a 'Jewish' version of leftism (i.e. Trotskyism or other left wing nationalist ideologies).

It's obvious he was clarifying what he went by leftism

It's not obvious to me.

OK, so there's this thing called "leftism". Fine.

Then, (apparently) there are "Jewish" versions of leftism, of which Trotskyism is one.

I think it's a fair question to ask, what marks out Jewish leftism from leftism as a whole. And then to ask which of those Jewish characteristics Trotskyism has.

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Serge Forward
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Sep 15 2006 13:45
Demogorgon303 wrote:
Oh come on, this really is a bit rubbish guys.

I know, but I just couldn't resist it. groucho

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the button
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Sep 15 2006 13:49
Serge Forward wrote:
Demogorgon303 wrote:
Oh come on, this really is a bit rubbish guys.

I know, but I just couldn't resist it. groucho

Yeah me neither. Damn you, Serge, I was hoping to keep this up all afternoon. angry

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Steven.
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Sep 15 2006 14:37
the button wrote:
Demogorgon303 wrote:
Oh come on, this really is a bit rubbish guys.

Alf wrote:
And when they do, they most often seem to be looking for a 'Jewish' version of leftism (i.e. Trotskyism or other left wing nationalist ideologies).

It's obvious he was clarifying what he went by leftism

It's not obvious to me.

OK, so there's this thing called "leftism". Fine.

Then, (apparently) there are "Jewish" versions of leftism, of which Trotskyism is one.

I think it's a fair question to ask, what marks out Jewish leftism from leftism as a whole. And then to ask which of those Jewish characteristics Trotskyism has.

No button you've misunderstood again. You're reading the sentence wrong - he didn't say any type of leftism was jewish in any way. "Trotskyism or other left wing nationalist ideologies" were used to explain what "leftism" was.

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the button
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Sep 15 2006 14:44
the button wrote:
Serge Forward wrote:
Demogorgon303 wrote:
Oh come on, this really is a bit rubbish guys.

I know, but I just couldn't resist it. groucho

Yeah me neither. Damn you, Serge, I was hoping to keep this up all afternoon. angry

grin

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cantdocartwheels
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Sep 15 2006 14:55
Jack wrote:
And pepe's flame was certainly uncalled for.

No it wasn't, Alfs comment was designed simply to push the ICC line and provoke a discussion on internationalism, i'm surpriaed this isn't blatantly obvious to you. Come on, the very fact that he ended it qwith 'comunism is the abolition of al nations blah de fucking blah' is just clear as day sectarianism. Its always their tactic since they can only actually argue about two things, and quiet frankly its getting very tiresome.
What the hell kind of use would a comment like 'i don't think you shoudl be doing a jewish socialist website' be other than to score a few points. And personally i'd rather have jewsish socialist members posting on this site, even if i may not agree with all their political views, then all those ICC nutjobs.

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Alf
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Sep 15 2006 15:09

Did I say there was anything specifically Jewish about Trotskyism? What I am saying is that the varieties of 'Jewish socialism' I have come across are all leftist, in particular because they ardently support national liberation and want to be accepted as a legitimate part of the 'left'. It was the same with the left wing Zionists who tried to argue that Zionism was a legitimate national liberation movement, just like the PLO and the NLF in Vietnam.
Even if people on this thread are against organising as 'religious' socialists (and what a variety we could have then!), organising as 'cultural' socialists is just as divisive. Just think of the bullshit lists you find on local government job applications and transpose it to our case: you could tick boxes as Black British Socialists, Black African Socialists, Black Caribbean Socialists, Mixed Asian and European Socialists, Bangaldeshi Socialists, Irish Socialists, Greek Cypriot Socialists, Turkish Cypriot Socialists, Eastern European Socialists, Other Socialists, and not forgetting, White British Socialists (or would that be the BNP?)

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Serge Forward
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Sep 15 2006 15:20
Alf wrote:
Did I say there was anything specifically Jewish about Trotskyism?

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pepe carvalho
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Sep 15 2006 15:57
Jack wrote:

and as far as that goes, that's fair enough - but there is a historical tradition of separate Jewish socialist organisations (the Bund being the most famous example). Which are wrong. I don't really think it was untoward for Alf to comment on this on a thread about a Jewish socialist website. I mean it's not as if he said "I'm sorry, I don't see why Jewish socialists should make a website" or something.

And pepe's flame was certainly uncalled for.

the bund were wrong to organise seperately? during those times i really don't think so - there was plenty of anti semitism on the left at that time as well as in wider society - i don't think they had any other choice tbh

i also think that when we see the cheerleaders for islamism that sometimes seem a majority on the left today - those calling for the smashing of israel and the creation of a plalestinian state (rather than a no state or even a two state option) i think it's completely understandable for groups like the jewish socialists to organise

as long as it is not preventing them also organising on a class basis within wider society

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pepe carvalho
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Sep 15 2006 16:00
Jack wrote:

ffs, the ICC may be annoying at times and wrong at other times, but the urge to see every post they make as part as some grand conspiracy is just a little pathetic.

you do realise the only purpose for this current excursion into the swamp is in the hope of maybe recruiting a few anarchists? they do it every couple of years...

they are not posting on here for the same reasons as the rest of us!

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the button
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Sep 15 2006 16:07

Yay! Another thread about the ICC. cool

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pepe carvalho
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Sep 15 2006 16:23

i would assume judging by their name that the jewish socialists are organised on class grounds - the 'socialist' bit of their name gives it away. i'm also pretty sure the bund was organised on class lines...

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pepe carvalho
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Sep 15 2006 16:35
Jack wrote:

Except you had to be Jewish to join. So not really class grounds.

I mean if there was a major fascist party in Britain, and they set up a union only that only white Christians could join, would that be organising along class lines?

go to the back of the class!

you are now comparing the jewish socialists to fascists, which frankly is pretty pathetic - if a group of people with shared interests and outlook feel their views are not adequatly represented within the labour movement they have the right to organise along whatever lines they choose in order to push their agenda - whether women, gays, lesbians, people from a muslim background whatever!

judging by their name the jewish socialists are organised along class and cultural/ethnic lines, and given the amount of anti semitism in our society and among some of the current allies of sizeable sections of the left i can't say i blame them

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Alf
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Sep 15 2006 16:58

Mazeltov, Jack, you done good and no mistake! And we're the messhugenehs? Feh!

I would say more, but it will be shabbos soon and I have a long walk to schul.