Yrwenot3 vs Wayne

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Yrwenot3?
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Oct 21 2004 22:43
Ed wrote:
Sadly, the British anarchist movement isn't that big so as to avoid contact forever cry

So what about the bookfair then?

I'm up for it tongue

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Spartacus
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Oct 22 2004 01:42

yeah, although it would e nice if revol would apologise to wty, because much as i agree with most of his (revol's) piss taking and his (revol's) politics which alot of people who detest him (revol) also agree with, you (revol) are way to harsh on him (wty), who is a very good friend of mine, and has a very good sense of humour, even if he doesn't brandish it like lexington steele's cock on enrager. also, attacks on a sexual basis are out of order. i've got nothing against you joking about s&m and dildos because it get's me horny grin wink but all that nonsense about stealing the only female friend someone or other has, even when it's someone talking shit about me, just isn't funny. learn boy, or i'll whip you dressed as a japanese schoolgirl.

also, it should be pointed out for accuracy, rare as it is, that it was yrwenot3? that caused this thread not wayne. and also for accuracy, wayne brought up this on other threads before. but then that's fair enough because it was his mate being attacked, and the attacker who disappeared and then reappeared.

i would ask an for an apology just out of principle for being accused of having a trust fund, which i didn't even know existed in england, but as that may cause yrwenot3?'s apology drive to overload what with the now huge apology he owes to sabotabby, i won't bother, and just wait for it in person when we meet in person in about a year, if i even remember it, because it was only mildly amusing after all.

(edited for clarity, as i've had a tad too much to drink and so thought i should make it clear. argh, i need bed!)

WeTheYouth
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Oct 22 2004 11:49
Quote:
WTY, you're not helping and you know it. Yes, wayne and revol ripped seven shades out of you and you probably deserve an apology as well but you're not exactly an angel. You have been a bit hyper-sensitive at times and now you're just being provocative. Also, wayne isn't a troll just someone you don't like. The two are not the same.

I really saw how they ripped seven shades out of me. roll eyes They piss me off, for how they treat people on these boards, if you cant understand that, oh well. Wayne not a troll? Do you read these forums? or are you just popping up in his defence for the sake of it?

Quote:
I'm assuming this is a joke as you obviously hate wayne and revol (for fair enough reasons). Anyway, I'm sure the two sides will meet eventually. Sadly, the British anarchist movement isn't that big so as to avoid contact forever

It was a joke yes, and i do not hate them, they just do my head in. they seem to have litle repect for anybody else apart for the own little clique.

Quote:
and has a very good sense of humour, even if he doesn't brandish it like lexington's steele's cock on enrager

Thanks. lol.

3rdseason
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Oct 22 2004 17:49
GenerationTerrorist wrote:
learn boy, or i'll whip you dressed as a japanese schoolgirl.

hehehe

Wayne
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Oct 22 2004 21:23

Enrager is now a personality cult where almost half the threads are devoted to people's obsessions with me and Revol. It is presumably because of the heterosexist patriarchal climate we live in that the male posters disguise their lustful fixations with teasing criticism like flirting thirteen year olds. While the six female posters have internalised too much feminist dogma to publicly admit their admiration.

Yrewelying has recently complained that we are top of the food chain. We are, and there's a reason for this. We are the most highly evolved species here. We are the most politically coherent, argumentatively articulate and sexisest life forms on enrager. In short, we are humans and the rest of you are 'non-human animals'.

Just very slightly behind us is redyred. He is a lion. And cantdocartwheels is a tiger. And Steven. is a dolphin who was once fucked by Che Guevera.

JDMF is about at the level of a dog, but not a dog because as Samuel L. Jackson has divulged, 'dog's got personality'. Generation terrorist is a cat, he'll like that I think. We The Youth is a goldfish.

Nick Durie is a haggis, Username is a dung beetle, Crack Fix propaganda is Herpes Simplex Virus strain two and yrewelying is an amoeba.

This order of things has been understood from the start by riotkitten and lemming.

Now, even October Lost will have to admit that there is a massive difference between attacking a human and a dung beetle. Even October Lost will have to admit that opposing cruelty against an amoeba like yrewelying is taking things too far?

wink

3rdseason
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Oct 22 2004 23:15

Where am I in the food chain?? confused grin wink

Wayne
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Oct 22 2004 23:21

You were too stoned to even get in line mate!

3rdseason
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Oct 22 2004 23:33

Nah Im not into that anymore. Tell me something cool like I was in a k-hole or too chilled on mdma. Or maybes just blind drunk

nuclearcivvy
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Oct 23 2004 02:52

Er, ED. You have said several times in this thread that Wayne isn't a troll.

I disagree.http://www.enrager.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2795

Most of these posts are simply deliberate provokation. He's offensive, dismissive biggoted and arrogant in these posts. He contributed nothing to it, and hijacked it to the tune of a couple of thousand words.

What's a troll Ed?

He, revol and username are disgracing us all.

I'm trying to organise and encourage direct action on the G8. I'm encouraging people to register here, and join in, but so far, 3 people have expressed doubts about this forum. One asked if I was sure this was the right forum. She thought there was far too much dissing and petty point scoring for it to be regarded by serious people as an appropriate place for these discussions. I agree with her. This forum has a real credibility problem, and they are the cause. I'm not asking for them to be banned. Maybe I'm appealing indirectly to them to grow up or shut up, but I fully expect at least one cynical diss from one of them over it. Doesn't everyone?

Infact, if they don't troll me for this post, I may take heart, and dare to hope things will change.

Yrwenot3?
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Oct 23 2004 11:21
nuclearcivvy wrote:
I'm trying to organise and encourage direct action on the G8. I'm encouraging people to register here, and join in, but so far, 3 people have expressed doubts about this forum. One asked if I was sure this was the right forum. She thought there was far too much dissing and petty point scoring for it to be regarded by serious people as an appropriate place for these discussions. I agree with her. This forum has a real credibility problem, and they are the cause. I'm not asking for them to be banned. Maybe I'm appealing indirectly to them to grow up or shut up, but I fully expect at least one cynical diss from one of them over it. Doesn't everyone?

Infact, if they don't troll me for this post, I may take heart, and dare to hope things will change.

I can really relate to all this, we're really trying to get some stuff off the ground here too and we've been encouraging people to join this forum, but peope have also said similar things about the quality of the forum and the complete lack of community spirit here. There's too much individualised bitching and self agrandising cock waving going on here.

Enrager is one of the few resources we've got and I have to say it's being abused and people are put off joining and participating.

The trolling you talk about has even crossed into our regional forums which do have a community spirit of mutual aid and support. Hopefully Laz will keep em at bay and eliminate any posts that compromise our community.

Another interesting note about the trolling on this board is it's anonymity and association with a clique who are directly involved with running this board - that's what seems to sanction and feed it's momentum. Hopefully the people that pay and run this board will start to wake up and realise what's going on. I feel guilty myself for 'rising to the bait' but this is a new strategy on my part - but it does mean I end up speaking a similar discourse to them but it's only aimed at them and their clique tongue

nuclearcivvy and other people on the Scottish regional board, well fuckng done for engaging with the trolls and collectively making them look like the ignorant bigots they are.

Nice one smile Here's the link again if people wanna have a look at how we can take them on collectively http://www.enrager.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2795

Btw who pays for the cost of this board?

It's all about CLASS tongue

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Steven.
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Oct 23 2004 12:01

The people who run this board/site are the admins (maybe we should put this in a sticky?). They are

Me,

rkn,

zobags,

gav,

Jack,

Ed,

Tommy Ascaso,

pingtiao (er I think that's it)

Other moderators do regional forums etc.

We pay for it, through donations and making/selling some stuff.

Contrary to what Ed said, none of us are old mates with wayne or revol, we met them on the boards, like you lot did, they are cool people though and are obviously not trolls, despite being quite abusive sometimes.

Yrwenot3?
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Oct 23 2004 12:54

Question is Steve, how many of you lot suffer from that multiple personality disorder tongue

Steven. wrote:
Contrary to what Ed said, none of us are old mates with wayne or revol, we met them on the boards, like you lot did, they are cool people though and are obviously not trolls, despite being quite abusive sometimes.

So none of you actually know these two in the real world?

Interesting...

Are you implying that just because you as admin think their behaviour's acceptable then your apathy towards them should be sanctioned by the rest of us?

And no before I get mis-represented in a sudden burst of trolling, I am not calling for a ban. I'm asking a question tongue

And don't fucking come back with some rhetorical vacuous shite like it's all about class angry

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Ed
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Oct 23 2004 15:00
nuclearcivvy wrote:
What's a troll Ed?

Someone who comes on these boards and makes no attempt to engage in discussion but uses it as a one-way forum for their own political/personal/commercial needs. As you might also see from that thread, Wayne does make some very good points especially relating to pre-colony Scottish society, the 'need' for all oppressed nations in Britain to be sovereign and how nationalism isn't a good thing for the international working class. I can't say I agree with him on all those points but he does make a few. Hence, not troll. I would agree that he, revol etc have been well rude on that thread but again, being rude over the internet does not equal troll - otherwise u75 would have ceased to exist YEARS ago!

I do get your point about it being off-putting to newcomers and me and the rest of the admins will chat about it next time we get together. Promise.

One of the main reasons that I would say that Wayne, revol etc are not trolls is because, in their madness, they have pointed out some things about the UK anarchist movement that I've thought for about two and half years (and I've only been involved for about three!). That is, that many people in the anarchist movement are running around doing so much, but the actual benefit in terms of building a strong movement being very small. Again, I don't agree with everything they say but I can relate to some of it. I mean, we got a maybe 200-300 strong anarchist bloc on an anti-war demo a few years back and it was great. But when the firefighters had a demo, there were probably about 15 of us. Everyone wants to crack a squat or 'do direct action' but no one wants to do the hard fucking work of building a genuine, independant, militant working class movement. This means more than just opening a social centre and getting 15 local kids in with a token D+B night. If you wanna see how effective most of these social centres have been, look at how they've coped with evictions. To my knowledge, none had locals coming in and seeing off bailiffs, we always have to get the fucking anarchist rent-a-mob in from all over the city (that said, I have been part of that mob!).

I've had a very similar development of politics to revol. Yeah, it was cool at first to mess around in squatted social centres, doing sit-downs on demos etc but in the end I started to think "How is this helping bring about a classless, moneyless and stateless society?". And then it hit me, bringing about the end of capitalism is gonna be fucking hard and it means grassroots organising where we live and work. I'm not saying social centres etc are useless but always think: "Are we inclusive of the wider community ?", "Are we assisting the community?", "Are we teaching people the importance of solidarity and collective action?", "Are we encouraging people to set up their own grassroots fighting organisations?", "Are we showing people that another world is possible or are we just showing people that there is a fun oppositional sub-culture with no solutions for their actual problems?". These are questions we should all ask ourselves (and answer honestly) in our political activities. Once we start getting these right, then we'll be getting our movement off the ground (let's be honest, it can't get much worse! embarrassed ).

Yeah, revol and Wayne and some others have been well out of order sometimes, but they have brought up some very decent points. Had they made these points in slightly more comradely fashion, they might have been easier to spot but nonetheless, they made these points. Therefore, they are not trolls. As Voltaire said "I detest what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". I don't actually believe this, I jsut thought it would be funny to add in a quote from some gobshite liberal. This sentence, and the previous two, can be ignored as they are of absolutely no relevance to the rest of the argument grin

WeTheYouth wrote:
I really saw how they ripped seven shades out of me. They piss me off, for how they treat people on these boards, if you cant understand that, oh well. Wayne not a troll? Do you read these forums? or are you just popping up in his defence for the sake of it?

What was the point in this paragraph? What did I actually do that warranted you taking this tone with me? Haven't I said constantly that I reckon Wayne and revol can be out of order? Whatever. If you're gonna be rude to me for no reason coz you're pissed off with people being rude to you for no reason, there's nothing I can do about that (except meet you in person and charm the pants off you wink or kill you black bloc ).

Yrwenot3? wrote:
Question is Steve, how many of you lot suffer from that multiple personality disorder

Ooh, probably about the same as the number of your mates wink

Can I suggest that no one apologises to anyone and that we just try to start afresh? Come on, for the sake of the boards and the international working class (trust me, I'm sure it'll make an impact...).

Fuck this was long. I love it when my little brother's not in the house 8)

Peace, man

WeTheYouth
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Oct 23 2004 18:38
Quote:
One of the main reasons that I would say that Wayne, revol etc are not trolls is because, in their madness, they have pointed out some things about the UK anarchist movement

granted they have. but also didnt yrwenot3 and kidda do the same? and wayne et al attacked them. So in that sense they were being counter productive, also there idiocy in regards to username, yes primitivism sucks, but primmies are part of the social struggle.

Again yrwenot3 tried to start a discussion on the state of the anarcho movement and the respect it had, and it was dismissed straight off as folly, i think those who have been critical of the movement are those who are attacked by these wild eye fiends! black bloc

Quote:
What was the point in this paragraph? What did I actually do that warranted you taking this tone with me? Haven't I said constantly that I reckon Wayne and revol can be out of order? Whatever. If you're gonna be rude to me for no reason coz you're pissed off with people being rude to you for no reason, there's nothing I can do about that (except meet you in person and charm the pants off you or kill you ).

The point of that paragraph is because in fact you are wrong, im sorry i took a bad tone with you, i apologise for that. They are out of order the only problem is when someone suggests something to be done about how people treat others it is never taken seriously, its chaotic to say the least concerning the general workings and relationships on this board.

lucy82
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Oct 23 2004 21:14
Quote:
While the six female posters have internalised too much feminist dogma to publicly admit their admiration.

y're so right. i shrug off my internalised feminist dogma and purely out of admiration publically invite you, wayne, to come with us manc people to the NF shit possibly going down next week seeing as you haven't responded to my pm and i wouldn't want you to feel excluded like you felt before. go on, come, i'd like to meet you and i promise you won't get thrown out of the car.

i also promise not to ask you to sign autographs

grin

and Ed, i agree with you that people shouldn't apologise. no least because it ain't going to happen. as a spectator sport this is more boring than racing snails.

i'm no mediator , sort it out for yourselves, but it'd be good if enrager was a board where new people felt welcome. and part of that is not seeing massive flame rows kick off on almost every thread with the same people.

maybe its time to leave the pen set up by the admin.. come on i will tempt you all out with bread heavily laced with valium...

now be nice

nuclearcivvy
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Oct 24 2004 03:27
Ed wrote:
nuclearcivvy wrote:
What's a troll Ed?

What's a troll Ed?

Someone who comes on these boards and makes no attempt to engage in discussion but uses it as a one-way forum for their own political/personal/commercial needs. : ).

Yrwenot3? wrote:
Question is George, how many of you lot suffer from that multiple personality disorder

Ooh, probably about the same as the number of your mates wink

Can I suggest that no one apologises to anyone and that we just try to start afresh? Come on, for the sake of the boards and the international working class (trust me, I'm sure it'll make an impact...).

It's also someone who uses a forum for kicks and venting whatever chilling stuff may be inside them.

I agree with the "come on, for the sake of the board" bit, but I don't think there's anything will make me tollerate verbal bullying(or any other kind.)

I hope it stops. As some of us are aware, this is not a game, and people who want/need to verbally abuse someone should go find a microsoft user forum or something.

By the way, waynes points on relating to pre-colony Scottish society were well researched, but comprehensively biased slants on Scot's history, revisionary propoganda of the worst kind. Any unbiased analysis of that era shows a much different scene than the one handed to us by the victors. Does this stuff have a place on a forum like this? Sure. If the poster adimts his predjudiced stance, and is prepared to accept what will follow. Trying belittle Scot's pride has a long history, and is often passed down through English popular culture. You see Wayne was right. Shortbread and kilts are NOT our culture. Mad king George was the first to wear a dress kilt, which popularised it. Queen victoria popularised Shortbread. So where does he, and a dozen other music hall charicters get off making it the focus of ridicule? Sorry Wayne bt you had all that coming and more. You know as well as I, you wouldn't say any of your patter very loud in my local pub. This is currently a raw nerve up here with tory MP's being sent to taunt us with the same rhetoric. Many up here believe it too. Do you realise you come off like a tory from this side of the border? I hope you do now.

Things like the reformation, the colonies or the Scottish renaisence are always ignored. Our artisans and craftsmen were in demand across Europe while you still had a subsistence economy.. Our university at St Andrews trained them, while England had nothing to compare until the Norman conquest. Ever heard of Darrian, the great Michael or the Balkan connection? As for language, did you know counting to ten in the doric is the same in Dutch. Your list of languages to influence English had one missing. Scots. We have shaped your language while managing to preserve the usefulness and uniqueness of our own. This serves us well. We baffle you at will, while being able to make eachother out from dumfries to muchle flugger. Also, any corruption of English is just that. Just English. Leaving us to carefully cultivate o`or ain tongue.

With supreme irony though, it is our very culture which keeps us in touch with what actually happened. "We are bought and sold for English gold. Sic a parcel o` rogues in a nation."

With deepest sobriety, and some sadness, I say this as someone who loves English culture, not to mention people.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE MISSING.

I think you may have been slowly brainwashed to accept pop idol and big brother as a substitute.

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Steven.
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Oct 24 2004 14:18
nuclearcivvy wrote:
Our artisans and craftsmen were in demand across Europe while you still had a subsistence economy.. Our university at St Andrews trained them, while England had nothing to compare until the Norman conquest. Ever heard of Darrian, the great Michael or the Balkan connection? As for language, did you know counting to ten in the doric is the same in Dutch. Your list of languages to influence English had one missing. Scots. We have shaped your language while managing to preserve the usefulness and uniqueness of our own. This serves us well. We baffle you at will, while being able to make eachother out from dumfries to muchle flugger...

Er, you do know wayne's scottish right?

redyred
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Oct 24 2004 18:31
nuclearcivvy wrote:
Our artisans and craftsmen were in demand across Europe while you still had a subsistence economy.. Our university at St Andrews trained them, while England had nothing to compare until the Norman conquest. Ever heard of Darrian, the great Michael or the Balkan connection?

Your artisans and craftsmen? Friends of yours were they? If there are any important cultural or revolutionary figures who have been buried or misrepresented by history they should be reclaimed for all of us, but the way you're talking about these people just sounds like distracting nationalism. Why is it even something to be proud of that your country was once a greater power? What does it mean for people today, Scottish or otherwise?

Quote:

As for language, did you know counting to ten in the doric is the same in Dutch. Your list of languages to influence English had one missing. Scots. We have shaped your language while managing to preserve the usefulness and uniqueness of our own. This serves us well. We baffle you at will, while being able to make eachother out from dumfries to muchle flugger. Also, any corruption of English is just that. Just English. Leaving us to carefully cultivate o`or ain tongue.

So Scots influenced English - what do you want, a thank you? My whole point about language was that it's irrelevent. It is, in fact, class that's relevent.

Oh and by the way the idea that English people can never understand Scottish people is a national stereotype too.

Deezer
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Oct 26 2004 11:42

Great, lets celebrate lallans and Ulster Scots on an anarchist board.

Look mate, like lallans ulster scots is a dialect, a result of older gaelic (common to this wee part of the world and Scotland) influencing the English language as people came to speak it here. It is very similar to that thing called lallans. Some people reckon its a language and if you get drunk with some culchies in the glens you might begin to think they have a point.

This is all very interesting but doesn't actually impact on the exploitation we experience in common as working class people. You may prefer to wax lyrical about some semi-mythological culture in the meantime I suggest class struggle anarchists get on with the real work of building a more efffective movement across these islands.

Not opposed to learning ancient languages and other such 'cultural' hobbies but they are usually cited in defence of an exclusive nationalist project and an anrchist board isn't really the place for them.

Cheers

nuclearcivvy
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Oct 26 2004 16:11

OOK. At least I got you to concede our culture's only semi mythological.

You must also concede that national independence would be an improvement in terms of the class struggle in Scotlands case.

Now; I wonder if you'll accept that all the stereotyping started with yourselves, and was as nationally biased, if not more so, than any of the countering points I've raised.

Do you still advocate the status qou then? confused eek neutral

nuclearcivvy
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Oct 26 2004 17:55

So you've only been to glasgow then revol68?

It's got more in common with manchester than with my home town. A result of the conditions you have most eloquently described.

The current constitutional monarchy setup, or a socialist republic?

You choose the current setup for us and criticise our fried delecacies. You have fun baiting us, but there's no meat on your arguements. I'm advocating change for the better, that may be achievable and advantageous. You are broad brushing 5.000.000 people and painting us as bad as you can, while putting nothing constructive forward. You tell me to stay subjected to westminster until the revolution comes. (From london I assume.)

The only useful thing you've said here is to suggest what I have for tea tonight. You missed out on the opportunity to call my parentage into question, and you didn't even mention my mother! I thought you were good at this "forum discussion" stuff.

I think I need a new universe thingy. This one's got assholes in it who think it's a game..

Deezer
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Oct 26 2004 22:46
nuclearcivvy wrote:
OOK. At least I got you to concede our culture's only semi mythological.

You must also concede that national independence would be an improvement in terms of the class struggle in Scotlands case.

Now; I wonder if you'll accept that all the stereotyping started with yourselves, and was as nationally biased, if not more so, than any of the countering points I've raised.

Do you still advocate the status qou then? confused eek neutral

Concede? I've only just entered this debate. Of course its only semi-mythological and yes much of the stereotyping of people comes from groups outside those being stereotyped. I'm not sure who 'yourselves' are in relation to this tho as being from Belfast we also suffer various stereotypes which I'm afraid some local people seem intent on perpetuating. For example the skinny leprechaun with fists raised and 'fighting Irish' enblazoned underneath.

Would 'national independence' be an improvement in Scotlands case? Maybe for increasing some of the power of local politicos but in terms of class struggle the increased nationalism which would be needed to build the momentum for achieveing national sovereignty can only be seen as divisive and damaging to class struggle.

On this I'd like to ask if you would therefore advocate parliamentary action as a means to advance the class struggle? Its just that that would seem to go hand in hand with the pursuit of 'national independence' and the pursuit of power by a more local elite. This is hardly anarchism is it?

Also would it change the ownership of much of the land in Scotland, would it alter property relations, would it end exploitation? It might mean some people weren't as pissed off as they couldn't blame a load of 'English twats' (read politicians and Ministers) on their problems. It would also foster illusions in the local lot who would end up in 'power'.

But how much power would they really have anyway, given the global nature of capitalism? In reality, no matter what, the same type of system would be administering the same type of attacks on our services, our housing, our jobs, our communities and our lives.

So no I don't see any improvement there in terms of class struggle, the situation didn't improve any for workers in the south when the Free State was set up, it certainly didn't improve in the north, and nor will it improve when/if we get a new devolved administration. All these fuckers implement neo-liberal policies with impunity mate don't be daft enough to swallow this tripe.

'Do you still advocate the status quo', I never have. Obviously I'm a class struggle Anarchist and as such I advocate working class activity and solidarity against capitalism and all states and yeah, ultimatley, social revolution.

Cheers

circle A red n black star

LiveFastDiarrea
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Oct 26 2004 23:03

Scotch independence can only be a good thing, Scotch should be free for everyone.

nuclearcivvy
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Oct 26 2004 23:10

Revol68.

I'm surprised at you man. You keep ignoring the points I'm making and accusing me of what you fear.

Here's some factual corrections to your last post.

1. Scotland is not a region.

2. The concept of independence does not mean nationalism as you fear it will, and the concept of an independent mersey or tyne is not ridiculous.

3. I made it clear the Scots are still a coherent unit with a strong sense of identity, and never suggested We're all the same. Your deep fried marsbar comments etc did EXACTLY that. You hypocrite.

4. Scotland does not need to wait to be granted independence. We have the right under the articles of union to cede. You need to read more.

5. You've banged on about being an ulster scot already. Where you are from, or where the bullshitter who's bullshit you have swallowed came from have no bearing on the nature of your assertions. They are anglocentric and factually inaccurate.

National identity is a FACT here, which you seem ill equipped to handle. Your dogmatic refusal to see a legitimate cause, and fight for liberty, for ideological reasons sprinkled with john bull rhetoric makes little sense to me. What does it gain you? Ideological integrity?

You'll wait a while to see the revolution Revol68. We won't ever make any consensus with bullheads like you in the way.

Liz Windsor gets to keep her holiday home everybody. Revol68 thinks the basques, zapatistas, and the Kurds have human rights, but the Scots have to remain a posession of the british establishment because somebody told him it had been good for us. This will be the case until a more perfect revolution can be arranged. Sorry for any inconvenience. It's "ideologies on the line" apparently.

Deezer
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Oct 26 2004 23:22

Yeah and nuclearcivvy could you address some of the points and questions I raised? Or have you got me and revol confused or reckon you can deal with us as the same person - in case u're not sure it looks like we're both logged on at the same time here.

We'll all be waiting a hell of a lot longer for a social revolution if we promote nationalism of any description. See the points in my earlier posting.

Oh and for someong so interested in culture (of an unchanging and primordial nature by the sounds of things) I'd have thought it would have been of interest to you that revol was of Ulster Scots descent - not bullshit from a bullshitter but either a nasty little descendent of planters who stole 'our' land or an economic migrant fleeing the red coats and British oppression in Scotland dependent on your particualr cultural take on it. BTW I'm Ulster Irish (just to confuse everyone).

circle A red n black star

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Steven.
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Oct 26 2004 23:32
nuclearcivvy wrote:
Liz Windsor gets to keep her holiday home everybody. Revol68 thinks the basques, zapatistas, and the Kurds have human rights, but the Scots have to remain a posession of the british establishment because somebody told him it had been good for us...

This is not just "ideologies" - this is Nationalism you know! Something which has successfully divided workers against ourselves for centuries, with tens of millions dead because of it - and not something we should be promoting.

nuclearcivvy
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Joined: 8-10-04
Oct 27 2004 00:26

I'm a Scots worker. I identify strongly with the Palestinians. The Kurds and Basques too. You say I'm alone? You are wrong.

Further clarification:

1. Strathclyde is a region, (a political, not geographical word, as in regional council.) Scotland is a nation, composed of eight regions.

2. You have all said national aspirations of Scotland will hinder internationalism, and then accused the Scots independence movement of the worst kind of nationalism. Anyone who has any experience of the independence movement knows that's not true. Inependence movements throughout the world point to what they call the Scots model.

THAT'S the BULLSHIT I'm on about. OK?

3. The Idea that we are complicit in the conspiricy of empire, and continue to benefit, while being incapable of autonomy.We hear it regularly from our tory MP's. You repeating it here is ironic. No?

THAT'S the BULLSHIT I'm on about. OK?

Look. I'm not going to sink to your level revol68. I'm going to let your misleading statements and your abusive tone stand for all to see. They are hallmarks of someone who's lost any logic in their arguement.

nuclearcivvy
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Joined: 8-10-04
Oct 27 2004 02:44
revol68 wrote:

1. so once again what are the defining characteristics of being scottish other than happening to live within an arbitrary boundary drawn up thru 1000's of years of ruling class competition?

2. and I take it from ur silence that u are incapable of defending ur bolllix notion that national identity is a FACT as opposed to a political construct at one point essential to the bourgeois...

3. and who are these independence movements who look towards the scotch model??

4. and once again if under the act of union Scotland has the right to sucede then how the fuck were u colonialised u daft fuck!

now go play with the traffic as uve shown urself to be a cretin!

1. Defining Scots identity is not hard. Ask people about their identity here and being a Scot has mostly got the first spot. Therfore the defining characteristic is feeling you share Scots heritage and culture. That is our choice. To be a unit. That is our right, and you leave no place for us to nurture and preserve what we value about that. You have no right to deny us autonomy. That's totalitarian. Anarchists choose to be a unit, and define themselves as such. If the communists came along and refused to allow your distinctiveness for reasons of unity, would you buy that crap?

2. It's a fact that people feel that way, and that's what you are ignoring.

Recently, an opinion poll carried out for the right wing press, found 73% would vote for independence in the right conditions. (Trouble is, they all have different conditions.)

The independence position is well understood up here, as distinct from the nationalist position, which has no tradition here. The UK media present the independence movement as driven by aincient grudges. Nothing could be further from the truth. We generally like our neighbours. (You sound like a stuck record in question 2 by the way. where's your evidence for that? Straight out of a book huh? Stop being so nieve.)

3. The Basques, the Kurds, the Checoslovakians(When they were that.) Most of the former soviet states as they were breaking up. including the baltic states, khazakstan and the ukraine. Margo Mcdonald has been round the world invited to explain the Scottish model. They call her madam ecosse in europe, and she's not the only invited speaker on this topic.

4. Read Nick's earlier post.(Or read a history book.) The fact you ask me shows you haven't been listening to us. Our politicians were threatened, and sold out for gold and lands in England. There were riots, and movements to quell dissent were taken. after culloden, new super forts were built here, and the anit-insurgence regiments formed. (You'll notice we have nothing but infantry regiments to this day. Fodder for the cannon of the wars of others. Can't you see how relevant and contemporary this is. We are farmed for the military/industrial machine. The black watch is based here. I went to school with two who have died this year. A long way from home. You think we'd be involved if we were independent?

This situation we find ourselves in is kept going by gerrymandering and poison press giving a unionist slant to everything. There's so many who are paid to tell Scotland it's not big enough, not rich enough, or not well connected enough to make it as an independent entity. Well who's interests does that serve? That's right. You find yourself propping up the status quo. I'm sure her majesty would thank you personally for your ideological purity.

If you have any more questions which show you are spoonfed secondhand political thought, and incapable of autonomous reasoning, please feel free to ask via PM, but since you can't pull yourself out of this without letting go of your precious dogma I expect you to drown in a flood of aggressive putdowns and national stereotypes.

You're a bit pathetic really. I've spent hours rebuffing your insulting authorotarian contrary diatribe of misdirected ideological fervour. Accept that I have a right to my views, and that I have justified them more than should be needed in any reasoned debate.. I've answered every little point you've tried to distort. Now go annoy someone else you disturbed little mind.

nuclearcivvy
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Joined: 8-10-04
Oct 27 2004 14:27

You picked out a handful of minorities and dismiss what I say, by assuming I mean't everyone when I made it clear I was talking about most.

You trot out 100yr old dogma, then accuse my ideas of being outdated.

You accuse me of nationalism when I've made it clear I'm not at all nationalist.

You pick the exceptions like Brown and Blair. Are we not us, if some of us act like pricks?

None of you are anarchists! Revol68's a cting like a prick, and coming out with the opposite of anarchy so the rest of you are a myth. You don't exist as a group!

And of course, you can't resist showing your biggotry at the end. I knew you wouldn't disappoint me.

I rest my case. I think there's more than enough rope there now.

Perhaps you should go read back over this string Revol68.

bigdave
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Joined: 25-07-04
Oct 27 2004 14:57

Well I'm Scottish and would prefer Scotland to be independent from the English Empire. I think decentralisation is a positive thing generally. So revol68, are you saying you're descended from the colonists who provided the overseers for the empire? That might explain your previously-stated repetition of the government propaganda the the "Irish problem" is just a dispute between opposing groups who like violence. And were you bullied at school?

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