Why resist ID cards?

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Thora
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Jun 24 2004 10:09
Why resist ID cards?

I don't want an ID card - I have a healthy distrust of government, and a general sense of unease about them collecting that much information about me. I just don't like the idea of the police stopping me and demanding to see my card. However, this doesn't really amount to a convincing anti-ID card argument. After talking to more liberal friends about the issue, and being faced with 'innocent people have nothing to hide', I haven't felt informed enough to present a coherent response. Can anyone help me with some clear reasons for resisting the introduction of these cards (other than it will make it more difficult to fiddle the dole wink )?

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Jacques Roux
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Joined: 17-07-06
Jun 24 2004 10:21

Personnaly im not sure so about the whole ID card thing... 'corse its a fucking horrible idea but there are a million things just as horrible - its not like ID cards are particulairly new - im not sure why Britain doesnt already have them - nearly everywhere else.

But anyway these links might have some more info for you:

http://www.defy-id.org.uk/ - UK anti-ID network

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/05/05/complete_idcard_guide/ - Everything u ever wanted to know about ID

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/06/293828.html - Someones IMCUk post

smile

Ghost_of_the_re...
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Jun 24 2004 17:55

The term 'entitlement card' bothers me greatly. I was born and raised here, i pay my taxes, i have no criminal record and i give money to as many clipboard wielding-charity muggers as i can afford to. Why therefore should my entitlement to NHS care, education and so on be reliant upon my willingness to allow the government to know where i am and what i'm doing at any given time? There is no reasoning behind this entitlement nonsense, it is of course merely blackmail.

"The innocent have nothing to hide" is a very clever 'argument' until you realise that this is not actually relevant to anything. That we have 'nothing to hide', in the sense that no information about us would lead to a criminal conviction, is not an argument in favour of losing the right to keep certain facts to ourselves. Innocent until proven guilty is, and should remain, one of the untouchable pillars of law in this country, and this principle extends to ID cards; why treat the innocent as guilty in case they do something wrong?

There's a democratic angle to this i dislike as well- we vote in a government to take responsibility for things like public services on our behalf, but i do not believe it is in the remit of any democratically elected government to decide that any citizen is no longer entitled to the public services they pay for.

That the government can do things like this against the public will and still get elected simply due to the lack of an alternative is a very worrying aspect of the two-party system.

jerrytug
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Joined: 10-11-03
Jun 25 2004 21:23

ID cards will be a new business,the law will oblijge us to BUY ID cards,it`s a dream come true,another PRODUCT which we all have to BUY out of our OWN POCKETS or be a criminal.This is the coup in Germany....if you don`t keep you national ID card up to date,you lose the "right" of citizenship of your own country.It`s like compuylsory `insurance`,can you imagine the FatCat sitting down with the "member" of parliament,"I`ve got a good scam,let`s make it the law that everybody has to give us a big sum of dosh,and if they don`t pay they are antisocial and the p*gs will nick them".

What other "products" are we OBLIGED to buy probably a lot if you sit down and make a list.

Mike Harman
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Joined: 7-02-06
Aug 16 2004 13:46

UK 'sleepwalking into Stasi state'

Jenny Booth

Monday August 16, 2004

The Guardian

Richard Thomas, the information commissioner, has warned that Britain could be sleepwalking into an East German-style surveillance society, holding extensive but secret files on all citizens.

Mr Thomas said the government was planning three population databases that would make more personal information quickly available to more officials, yet citizens would not be able to find out what the government knew about them.

The projects, he said, were the home secretary's identity card scheme, the citizens' information project (a population register proposed by the Office for National Statistics), and a planned database of every child in the country from birth to the age of 18.

"My anxiety is that we don't sleepwalk into a surveillance society where much more information is collected about people, accessible to far more people shared across many more boundaries, than British society would feel comfortable with," he told The Times.

The Commons' home affairs select committee has warned that David Blunkett's secretive and uncosted plans for a biometric identity card scheme would alter the relationship between the individual and the state. Information on the cards would take three pages to list and be available to many, from the Inland Revenue to MI6, including any authorised government department. However, individuals would be barred from seeing the information on them.

Mr Thomas, 55, the information commissioner for the past two years, is responsible for promoting public access to official records and ensuring that the state does not collect unnecessary data on citizens.

He recalled Franco's fascist state and the eastern European communist regimes, which collected vast quantities of information on individuals.

Asked if he thought there was a risk of Britain heading the same way, he said: "I think there is a danger. I don't think people have woken up to what lies behind this. It enables the government ... to build up quite a comprehensive picture about many of your activities." Mr Thomas challenged the government to explain the purpose of ID cards.

AnarchoAl
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Aug 16 2004 14:17

Both polls and personal experience show that most people agree in principle with compulsory ID cards but disagree with most individual points of the government's plans. So it's enough to tell people the detail of how these will work.

Important points

* You'll have to pay £35 for the card in order to get dole, student loan, a job, non-emergency NHS treatment...

* You'll have to keep the government up to date with your current address, failure to do so carries a £1000 maximum fine.

* Failure to have an ID card carries a £2500 maximum fine.

* It's going to cost £3bn according to Blunkett, which doesn't include the cost to the police, dole office, NHS etc of buying equipment necessary to check that the biometric on the card matches the card-holder. How many expensive iris-scanners (or whatever; they're still testing different biometrics) will be needed?

* The database (I think technically 5 databases) is scarier than the ID cards. It will link together most information the government has on you, and tie this to 'biometric' data like an iris scan or fingerprint. This will make possible cross-referencing searches. The NAZIs relied on a similar, paper/mechanical computer database (tehnology provided by IBM) for the holocaust- it was useful to be able to perform searches like "Who are all the Jews of Polish extraction living in Hamburg?" or whatever.

More info

http//www.theregister.co.uk/2004/05/05/complete_idcard_guide/

Ghost_of_the_re...
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Aug 16 2004 15:36

If they want that £35 from me they can pry it from my cold dead hands.

I wonder what would happen if a non-payer took them and their fine to the EU court of human rights?

WeTheYouth
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Aug 16 2004 16:43
Ghost_of_the_revolution wrote:
If they want that £35 from me they can pry it from my cold dead hands.

I wonder what would happen if a non-payer took them and their fine to the EU court of human rights?

probably be laughed all the way to paying the fine.

woofnbark
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Joined: 16-03-04
Aug 16 2004 17:02

Also see

www.No2ID.com

Mr. T

I couldn't help noticing that David Blunkett complaining about is personal life being expose in the newspapers. Maybe if we could send an "Fake" ID card in braille David Blunket is having an affair with ... maybe then he will get the message.

wink

Clever arn't I; anyone got a braille machine handy?

AlexA
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Aug 17 2004 00:00
Thora wrote:
I don't want an ID card - I have a healthy distrust of government, and a general sense of unease about them collecting that much information about me. I just don't like the idea of the police stopping me and demanding to see my card. However, this doesn't really amount to a convincing anti-ID card argument. After talking to more liberal friends about the issue, and being faced with 'innocent people have nothing to hide', I haven't felt informed enough to present a coherent response. Can anyone help me with some clear reasons for resisting the introduction of these cards (other than it will make it more difficult to fiddle the dole wink )?

I think the main reason is that, sure if you haven't done anything wrong you will have nothing to hide, but of course at times most people are enemies of the state at one level or another - whether it's wanting a pay rise, or opposing the Poll Tax or opposing sweatshop labour, etc.

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pingtiao
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Aug 17 2004 08:03

There is something here that Idon't think gets pointed out enough.

It isoften very difficult to "histoicise" our current society. One thing that we can be sure of is that it will change: our government will change, class relations will shift, social norms will move.

The problem is that even if we currently live in a liberal capitalist democracy, we will not always do so.

These tools tha the state is creating for itself will form a static background to these societal changes. Whatever government comes in will still have 25% of the world's CCTV cameras- linked up to databases with image recognition software. They will also have this incoming tool- a way of monitoring each and every person's movements and interactions with state agencies.

I don't care how well-meaning they may be with this (although I don't believe that they are, most people do), what concerns me are the uses this technology can be put to by future regimes.

I will resist.

Ghost_of_the_re...
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Aug 17 2004 11:10
WeTheYouth wrote:
Ghost_of_the_revolution wrote:
If they want that £35 from me they can pry it from my cold dead hands.

I wonder what would happen if a non-payer took them and their fine to the EU court of human rights?

probably be laughed all the way to paying the fine.

You're probably right sad

thismachinebleeds
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Joined: 19-08-04
Aug 19 2004 14:03

just as a side issue, i find it quite funny that blunkett says that these id cards will either stop or deter 'terrorists' from acting. but if you think about it, when the cards are issued and you have to show them to each and every 'authority' figure from the police to a check in girl at the airport, if they havent got anything on you then what really stops the person from committing a terrorist attack? it aint gonna that much, is it??? confused

yes
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Aug 19 2004 16:58

Poor Old David is about to have an DNA test, I sure hope he sents his DNA to the Police 'authority' so that they can stick his data on his ID card. After all he hasn't got anything to hide now has he. wink

Ghost_of_the_re...
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Aug 20 2004 12:51

Some devious hacker should find Blunkett's records and subtly add a conviction for sex offences. The subsequent bricking by news of the world readers would be exactly what the miserable little fascist deserves.

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Rob Ray
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Aug 21 2004 18:10

The current issue of Freedom is carrying an article on just this subject as part of a surveillance society special.

If you wish to travel abroad, drive or use any pubic services, you will eventually be required to get these cards, even if they are mentioned as voluntary on the official bumpf, because the distribution of new non-biometric versions will be phased out entirely within the next ten years.

Mike Harman
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Joined: 7-02-06
Aug 22 2004 08:37

I'm sure that's how they'll do it. National Insurance cards will carry it, passports, driving licenses, the (two?) NHS cards. If you register a change of address with the DVLA you'll have to get one (same with photo licenses now), or anything else like that. They won't make it illegal to not have the card, they'll just make it impossible to do most activities unless you have it.

Mystic
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Joined: 14-01-04
Aug 22 2004 20:23

Well I think I'm against this. This is going to crack down mostly on the young, ethnic minorities, working class people, plus it'll make it even easier for the state to hunt down asylum seekers and immigrant workers. It'll let the police pick someone up and arrest them for committing no crime, just for walking down the street without an ID card, something anyone has a right to do. Those kind of state powers are so open to abuse, and state powers open to abuse always get abused.

I know they're saying at the moment that it'll be okay if you don't have an ID card, that you'll be asked to report at a police station in the next couple of days just like if you're caught without your driver's licence. Thing is, the police have a hold on you if you've forgotten your driver's license because they can take down your numberplate, but there's no similar thing they can do when it comes to ID cards. So it's inevitable that they're going to be able to arrest people on the spot for not having one, just like anywhere else in Europe. Say you're a young working class kid, much more likely to get stopped by the police than anyone else, and you've just forgotten your ID card - you could arrested for that. Now that's definitely wrong.

AnarchoAl
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Aug 22 2004 23:28

If they stop you in the street and ask for your ID, you have a week (IIRC) to report to the police station with it or... um... what exactly happens?

Of course, that can be changed with minor legislation later...