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what does solidarity really mean for the anarchist movement?

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JoeMaguire
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Oct 1 2004 10:03
Kidda wrote:
roll eyes :(

Im inclinned to agree

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Steven.
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Oct 1 2004 11:40
GenerationTerrorist wrote:
oh come on, that post is hilarious! and i know and like the guy it's about, just lighten up a bit and appreciate the humour...

True - I nearly pissed myself in the office. I got in trouble with boss-man too sad

Yrwenot3?
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Oct 2 2004 10:01

Wahey nice story!

Can I tell everyone what was said at the gathering yet?

Yrwenot3?
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Oct 2 2004 10:28

Since there seems to be some confusion about what it means already, here's a brief definition of unionist politics just to get the ball rolling.

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In the Irish context, Unionists form a group of largely (though not exclusively) Protestant people in Ireland, of all classes, who wish to see the continuation of the Act of Union, as amended by the Government of Ireland Act 1920, under which the Northern Ireland provincial state created in that latter Act remains part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

The terms Unionist and Loyalist are often used interchangeably; however, the original meanings of the two terms were quite different, for Loyalist was generally used to describe those who insisted that all of Ireland remain in the United Kingdom while Unionist suggested only support for keeping Northern Ireland British (today virtually no Protestants, even the most extremist, hold out any hope of southern Ireland ever reuniting with Great Britain). In current usage, the Loyalist label is most commonly restricted to those Protestants who advocate the use of paramilitary force and violence to preserve the union, with those who work for continuing the status quo through established political means being referred to as Unionists.

Yrwenot3?
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Oct 2 2004 12:31
revol68 wrote:
thanks for that lesson roll eyes

how the fuck does sabotabby fit any of those labels?

No worries - don't see it as a lesson - just want to agree some basic terms before it descends into complete relativism wink

What's Sabotabby got to do with this and when have I said they fit any of those labels? I'm referring to something that was said at the gathering that seems to resonate with someone else's expression on these boards, whether it's you, Wayne, Sabotabby, whoever, whatever - I don't give a flying fuck to be honest. Trying to engineer some kinda witchhunt just like with the burnt toy at the gathering is working to displace attention away from the real issues. At the moment I'm interested in how this relates to anarchism and solidarity - that's partly why I brought it up before it all went slightly pearshaped. I don't get much access to internet at the moment and it's hard to intervene and get your voice across when the sarcastic rhetoric starts to fly.

revol68 wrote:
stop holding out u twat, just admit ur full of shit or at least offer some evidence to suggest how wayne "works for continuing the status quo through established political means."

Aren't you taking that quote a little bit out of context? I think the simplest way of looking at unionism is whether you believe in preserving the union between the UK and Northern Ireland and whether you think it should have happened in the first place? There's obviously a lot more to it than that in terms of its political, economic, and cultural effects - England and other imperialist state's legacies are very multi-faceted - wouldn't you agree?

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if its because he doesn't believe in the national struggle then im afraid i might be a unionist as well, as might the vast majority of people in northern ireland who are fed up to fuck with the whole pointless fucking mess.

Who said anything about believing in the 'national struggle'? You won't be able to find any references from me about national struggle or nationalist liberation - I have problems with this politically just like most anarchists and most of the left. I do however value showing people solidarity who are under repression from nationstates and they have a moral/legal/human right to resist this and it doesn't necessary have to find it's expression in movements that stress nationalism.

What seems to come across and what was said at the gathering, is that they seem to see this politics of resistance only in terms of national struggle versus maintaing some kinda union/occupation/'status-quo' of that country. I might have read this wrongly but that's what seems to come across. I find it hard to tell what some people feel strongly and sincerely about on these boards at the moment.

What we should be doing is trying to raise some awareness about this state based repression and at least show some solidarity. It's not about condoning the actions of national liberation groups but focusing on what these states are doing in terms of repression and occupation. What's the real politics going on here at a grassroots level and what can we do about it?

We can obviously talk more about this, but can I ask you what

Quote:
the whole pointless fucking mess

is in Northern Ireland, what you think could have caused it in the first place and what grassroots solidarity can we as anarchists develop?

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Oct 2 2004 13:28

That's a long post but I still can't see how it links sabbo to unionism. Are you unwilling to put up what was said?

Yrwenot3?
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Oct 2 2004 13:59

I'll put up what was said if it's really necessary - just wanted to get the context across first and establish some uncontested terms.

Just for the record, again, I have not directly accused Sabotabby of these labels - I said it was someone at the gathering that kinda sounds just like quite a few people posting on this board. If anything I might have implied it was more than one person on these boards.

But then again, does it matter what identity that person from the gathering assumes on this board? How do we know who's who?

Are people interested in the politics expressed here or engineering some kinda unproductive witchhunt? To be honest I'm not sure who's identity relates to who on these boards anymore. Taking more than one identity and concealing it seems to be tolerated but not questioned.

And it's also worth considering the fact that everyone using this medium has the ability to mask their real IP addresses through the use of proxy servers and www.anonymizer.com So there's no point vouching for people in terms of them having different IP addresses.

If I do relay the conversation, how is it gonna be handled? Cos at the moment I can't really see any constructive point to it. And yes I can remember what was said along with the other people present, and I was pretty astounded eek

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Oct 2 2004 14:11

Well if you post what was said then sabbo can confirm or deny. If he denies you'll know he isn't that person, or at least doesn't have those views any more.

Yrwenot3?
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Oct 2 2004 14:18

I'm not interested in whether they said it, just as I wasn't interested in who burnt the toy. What I am interested in is the fact that socially this in both cases was tolerated and when it's brought up in terms of understanding how and why it happened all people can do is point fingers and de-politicise the whole thing.

If they don't believe in it anymore then that's great. Everyone has the propensity to change, I know I have throughout my life and that wasn't achieved through blame but self-realisation.

Do you really want me to effectively humiliate someone who we do or don't know posts to this list? Don't people have a right to some kinda dignity on this board? I think the stuff I've already provided shows what was discussed without descending into some kinda authoritarian blame culture.

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Oct 2 2004 14:23

Well if I don't know what was said Ican't get bothered about it being tolerated. If you think them saying it was out of order then why not humilliate them? That's what unionists are there for.

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Steven.
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Oct 2 2004 15:13
Yrwenot3? wrote:
And it's also worth considering the fact that everyone using this medium has the ability to mask their real IP addresses through the use of proxy servers and www.anonymizer.com So there's no point vouching for people in terms of them having different IP addresses.

Fuck IP addresses - wayne, sabotabby and revol are all different people - fact.

And stop trying to backtrack! We know what you said about the Irish person at the gathering - who was sabotabby. So why don't you either justify your accusation, or apologise for lying?

Yrwenot3?
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Oct 2 2004 15:25
Steven. wrote:

Fuck IP addresses - wayne, sabotabby and revol are all different people - fact.

Says who, you can't prove that and why should we believe someone like yourself who uses too identities but refuses to say why?

Quote:
And stop trying to backtrack! We know what you said about the Irish person at the gathering - who was sabotabby. So why don't you either justify your accusation, or apologise for lying?

You really are out to lunch, aren't you?

I'll post up what was said tomorrow, after I've done some work in the real world and you can reflect on what's at stake here.

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Steven.
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Oct 2 2004 15:54
Yrwenot3? wrote:
Steven. wrote:

Fuck IP addresses - wayne, sabotabby and revol are all different people - fact.

Says who, you can't prove that and why should we believe someone like yourself who uses too identities but refuses to say why?

Jesus well quite a few people on here know them ffs! And as wayne pointed out they have been logged on simultaneously.

Look just stop chucking false accusations around, alright? It's not hard. Y'know, just be honest.

Kidda
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Oct 2 2004 15:55
GenerationTerrorist wrote:

and more importantly than this nonsense, i think rkn said earlier that communication would be one of the best ways to encourage solidarity, because most of the time the anarchist movement seems to work on informal friendship networks, so it's quite hard to show solidarity if you don't know when you need to. for instance with the brum squat obviously people didn't know about the eviction etc. in time to put something in freedom say, but something could have gone on the general forum here. you can't blame people for not showing solidarity if they didn't know about it. if you publicise an urgent need for solidarity in every possible and realistic communication network the movement has, and you still get fuck all, then there's a problem. otherwise the problem is communication. and the tiny and spread out nature of the uk anarchist movement, together with the shit transport infrastructure...

i was using the centre as a personal example because its whats effected me

i was actually looking for a wider disscussion on the issue of anarchist solidarity rather than just focusing on Bournbrook Social Centre http://stuffit.org/nursery/, but to point out the first couple of calls for support and evictions were put on the front of indymedia and yet we still got little support from anarchist sources, theres a thread over on Urban75 about the social centre and weve had support from there, but mostly its been non anarchists as well, were not looking for a mass charge on the council house in brum just knowing people were wishing us well would have helped moral loads, i was going to post a thread on the general but decided at the time against it because it would have been trolled to fuck just like this one has

Simon Chapmans case was publicised everywhere and yet he still got shite support. Mark Barnsely was inside for years and again got shite support

what i thought would have been good was a disscussion on what people thought ''solidarity'' meant and what ways could we support each other. Thinking back to the thessi prisoners case i know alot of us felt frustrated because we couldnt get to London to join in the demos or over to Greece to physically help. But we found other ways of showing our support. It seemed the majority of people just didnt bother other than to hark on about it on internet message boards about the need to do something.

whats happening to enrager this used to be a positive place, now its full of trolls and when disscussion does happen people would rather fuck the threads up and talking about wanking over ninjas instead

sad

The revolution will have to be televised, because the majority of people are going to be sitting in watching it rather than taking part by the looks of things

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Steven.
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Oct 2 2004 16:24
Kidda wrote:
what i thought would have been good was a disscussion on what people thought ''solidarity'' meant and what ways could we support each other. Thinking back to the thessi prisoners case i know alot of us felt frustrated because we couldnt get to London to join in the demos or over to Greece to physically help. But we found other ways of showing our support. It seemed the majority of people just didnt bother other than to hark on about it on internet message boards about the need to do something.

What did you post on here about stuff you did in solidarity with Simon?

Nothing, but you still did stuff though. Same here, and I'm sure it's the same for most people. Most anarchists I know do shitloads of stuff here and there, but because we don't all tell each other about everything some people wrongly assume they're the only ones "doing" anything.

You know what i'm saying? I mean it's easy to get disheartened but y'know I don't think you should smile

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Oct 2 2004 17:07

The London Thess support group felt they got little help. This would suggest that few of the 1,000 or so people who come to the (A)book fair did anything.

We have to admit this is a problem.

Kidda
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Oct 2 2004 17:13

yeah from speaking to people involved in that the general feeling was the thess prisoners didnt get much support and it was left to a small core of his friends to do the fighting

im not ''thinking'' they didnt because i havent seen it on enrager, ive heard it from people closely involved

and thinking back to the thread one of the WOMBLES put up on this site about the lack of support they were recieveing.

but still the question remains

what do people think we can do?

desertR
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Oct 2 2004 17:22

Well forgive me for not knowing the (ENGLISH) name of every ethnic group around Wayne! Honestly roll eyes I saw it and thought it was something it was not and now I am supposed to feel "a right twat" well that is a very strange idea of anarchist self education I must say.

Now Wayne you say that I should apoloise to you and I am not going to not because I am too proud and not because I am unable to admit when I have been wrong but because MY CENTRAL POINT STILL STANDS!

And Mr. Red (are you a Trotskyist by any chance?) NO I WONT STOP POSTING IN CAPITALS OR DOING ANYTHING ELSE I WANT TO DO JUST BECAUSE YOU TELL ME!

My central point was that the language that Wayne uses is disgusting and the mongoloid example was only one that I could have chosen. Even in your reply that you gave me YOU HAVE PROVEN MY POINT! Look-

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Gladly. DesertR, you're a fucking occidental prick aren't you? Ignorant cunt... Now fuck face... you probably didn't have the benefit of public schooling You'll learn with time to never contradict people like me who have enjoyed more expensive educations than you.

You have called me who is an anarchist who is a fellow traveller on the road towards freedom who is a person! You have called me a mass of insults. Why? Then you have tried to make me feel small by boasting about your expensive education how can that be anarchist?

LOOK at your attempt to ridicule yrewenot3? in a cruel and non-constructive oppositional conflictive way. Why?

LOOK at how you talk to females on these boards "wanna fuck?" remember that?

What is wrong with you? I do not hate you or anyone else but I am worried that you are destroying this space for everybody else. You are the most dogmatic "anarchist" I have ever had the misfortune to encounter. Worse you are a bully. Do not insult me because I will not play your game of conflict and opposition. I will not fight with you. But I do want to see anarchist spaces be friendly and open minded and liberal and tolerant and practising what they preach and representing the free thinking diverse nature of anarchism. I am quite shocked by some of the posting on these boards and think it is very harmful to a movement I have been part of probably since before you were born.

Again then with an open hand and an open mind, I will invite you to apologise.

Kidda
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Oct 2 2004 17:25

i doubt he will apologise because he's a troll

your reaction unfortuantley is what he thrives on

the sad fact is people seem to sit back and find it funny

desertR
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Oct 2 2004 17:34

Then why do not this community try to do something about him? Talk about his behaviour that it is unaceptable and as a last resort ban him?

redyred
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Oct 2 2004 17:48
desertR wrote:
Well forgive me for not knowing the (ENGLISH) name of every ethnic group around Wayne! Honestly roll eyes I saw it and thought it was something it was not and now I am supposed to feel "a right twat" well that is a very strange idea of anarchist self education I must say.

Well if you didn't know why did you start screaming at him how disgusted you were? By the way did you mention that you have worked with people with learning disabilities gives you more right to be disgusted or were you just trying to show off what a compassionate and understanding person you are?

Quote:
And Mr. Red (are you a Trotskyist by any chance?) NO I WONT STOP POSTING IN CAPITALS OR DOING ANYTHING ELSE I WANT TO DO JUST BECAUSE YOU TELL ME!

I didn't tell you, I asked. And I pointed out how you doing it made your posts less pleasurable to read. Therefore I was doing you a favour. And what are the thanks I get? You suggest I'm a Trotskyist! You're just mean.

Quote:
LOOK at your attempt to ridicule yrewenot3? in a cruel and non-constructive oppositional conflictive way. Why?

Cos its funny

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What is wrong with you? I do not hate you or anyone else but I am worried that you are destroying this space for everybody else. You are the most dogmatic "anarchist" I have ever had the misfortune to encounter. Worse you are a bully. Do not insult me because I will not play your game of conflict and opposition. I will not fight with you.

See ya then.

Quote:
But I do want to see anarchist spaces be friendly and open minded and liberal and tolerant and practising what they preach and representing the free thinking diverse nature of anarchism.

Open-mindedness is stupid. What's the point in having opinions if you concede they might be in any way wrong? Primitivists, hippies, liberals etc should have nothing to do with the struggle against the bourgeoisie, so therefore it's the vital task of a revolutionary to point out to them how stupid they are and, where necessary, tell them to fuck off.

nastyned
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Oct 2 2004 17:55
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
The London Thess support group felt they got little help. This would suggest that few of the 1,000 or so people who come to the (A)book fair did anything.

We have to admit this is a problem.

My feeling is that of the 1000+ people that come to the bookfair don't do much at all, prisoner solidarity or otherwise.

Yrwenot3?
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Oct 2 2004 18:53
redyred wrote:
Open-mindedness is stupid. What's the point in having opinions if you concede they might be in any way wrong? Primitivists, hippies, liberals etc should have nothing to do with the struggle against the bourgeoisie, so therefore it's the vital task of a revolutionary to point out to them how stupid they are and, where necessary, tell them to fuck off.

Arrogant wanker alert roll eyes

sabotabby
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Oct 2 2004 19:24

Yrewenot3? I am certain I was the person you spoke to at the AYN gathering, nobody else was discussing Northern Ireland. I am ready for humiliation and though I apreciate your generous offer to save me embarassment and allow me to preserve some dignity, I give you permission to post what I said. Various people, myself included, have been asking you for days now. If what you post is untrue I will say so. I have not changed my opinions on this issue since we spoke though they have changed massively over the last seven years. I am not a unionist because I do not think the British state should exist in Northern Ireland or anywhere else. You also called me a nationalist bigot. I'm not a nationalist bigot either. I'm happy to defend my position, it is the one shared by most anarchists in Northern Ireland- neither one state nor the other, but working class, 'cross-community' revolutionary solidarity. I used to live with a comrade from a staunch republican background from South Armagh. He only ever called me a unionist or a nationalist bigot in jest.

Try not to be too vague, when you talk about resistance to oppression at the hands of a nation state and the need to support grassroots resistance to it, I don't really know what you are talking about specifically. In Northern Ireland, most of the 'grass roots resistance' to the police at least, comes from Loyalists. I don't support them even if their resistance is undeniably a grassroots militant attack on the forces of the state.

So, for the final time, please make the argument you were unable to make at the time. Your refusal to say what was said that astounded you (I have no idea BTW) is underhand and leaves people who were not present to imagine I was spraying KAT on every wall while singing 'heaven is the Sandy Row where fenians dare not go'. Come out in the open and stop whispering behind people's backs.

sabotabby
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Oct 2 2004 19:25

Oh and Wayne should be banned without further discussion, he sucks donkey's dicks FFS!

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Steven.
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Oct 2 2004 19:45
desertR wrote:
Then you have tried to make me feel small by boasting about your expensive education how can that be anarchist?

Er, desertR that was a joke!

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Oct 2 2004 22:12
desertR wrote:
Then why do not this community try to do something about him? Talk about his behaviour that it is unaceptable and as a last resort ban him?

Because not everyone finds the behaviour unacceptable. I've been a bit wound up by it but I also have found some posts by thewayne/Revol/Sabbotabby persona very funny.

Wayne
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Oct 2 2004 22:41

***No one likes me, I don't care*** etc. cry

Apologise? This should be renamed the sorry thread! Will I fuck, there's a queue anyway.

Quote:
MY CENTRAL POINT STILL STANDS!

No, your point was about the word mongaloid being disablist. Since I was saying nothing about disability, your point is cac. You are now introducing new points and they are also cac.

Objecting to my swearing at you is vile cultural imperialism since, wait for this, I didn't really go to Gordonstoun! In fact I grew up in a brothel where everybody insulted each other as a term of endearment, and I know no other way to interact with people.

If all the people on this board knew each other through a strike we were involved with then I would try to get on with everyone and would be tolerant of people's stupid ideas. But since we have no connection except political theory, there's no point tolerating shite ideas. One of the reasons anarchism is in such a miserable state is all this 'we're all anarchists' broad church shite. That's sectarian bullshit- prioritising an ideology over the interests of the class. If you're serious about revolutionary activity and don't view anarchism as a hobby then activity and ideology that you don't think contributes to the self-emancipation of the working class should be told to fuck off. The internet is a much better space to do that than face to face meetings as by its nature it is depersonalised. I can't really have an animostic relationship with yrewenot3 (just 4 an example) because I don't know him. Other people I have clashed with I do know and get on fine with. I don't want to compare myself to Debord because my analysis is much better than his was and I know that under the pavement is a shitty sewer with lots of used johnnies floating in it, but they were masters of intolerance. And their uncompromising maximalism is one of their lasting legacies. Their hate filled denunciations of the idiotic scum, the lowest form of life, the Nashists, was political, in fact they went drinking with the cunt and were good mates. I think I expose people's ideas to rigorous critisism and that is what pisses people off. Yrewenot3 wont say why he thinks people shouldn't shop at supermarkets because his thinking here is muddled, and that pisses him off more than being called a cunt.

Quote:
LOOK at your attempt to ridicule yrewenot3? in a cruel and non-constructive oppositional conflictive way. Why?

It was very funny and cheered a few people in a movement that can be depressing and humourless. Nobody reading that would think he really masturbated with the aid of a burnt plastic toy, so calling someone a unionist nationalist bigot is a more damaging insult. Satire and humour is a legitimate way to make a point. It is not just a joke, there is supposed to be a serious point in there as well. The other post you objected to, The Adventures of Username 2045 AD, was not just a piss take, it was the best way I could think to respond to ideas I find abhorrent.

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LOOK at how you talk to females on these boards "wanna fuck?" remember that?

I don't think there was anything wrong with that, I don't think Lucy was offended, not interested either unfortunately wink . Come on, it was obviously a joke and I don't think Lucy is sitting at home crapping herself in case a scary boy makes sex jokes. Come on, how fucking patronising can you be?

Quote:
What is wrong with you?

Burnt out, pissed off, sometimes depressed, bored, frustrated by the lack of serious politics in UK anarchism, still dreaming of revolution but losing hope, bad cold, drink too much, got work tomorrow, could do with a shag, amlost broke already and pay days not for three weeks, missing the Green Wing to type this...

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you are a bully

No I'm not, that hurts. I'm so misunderstood.

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i doubt he will apologise because he's a troll

I'm not a troll, I put a lot of time into my posts here 'cos I still think political ideas are worth fighting over.

As to the suggestion that less people post here 'cos of me and Revol, I don't think that's true and don't care if it is any way. The numbers game is bollocks. There's no use for a network that connects on the basis of ideology except formulating their ideas and sharing experiences and tactics. If people's ideas are crap and their tactics irrelevant then fuck them. All revolutionary structures should be grounded in everyday life.

Anyway, that's my defence, I'm not going to change how I post but unlike some folk I'm happy to abide by a majority decision. desertR, start a poll if you feel strongly about it, let it run a couple of weeks and if a majority vote wants me to piss off then I promise I will.

Wayne
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Oct 2 2004 22:43

Oh, and Sabotabby's in Lower Shankhill UDA and should be kicked the fuck out of the anarchist movement.

lucy82
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Oct 3 2004 02:36

Ok, seeing as how my names being dragged into this...

Quote:
LOOK at how you talk to females on these boards "wanna fuck?" remember that?

desertR, after i answered wayne on this one with

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yuk, no

patriarchal rapist oppressors, you'll be using chat-up lines next

time to take wayne to the vets...

roll eyes

you said:

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LOL! Lot of strange people use these boards but that diversity is great.

I don't intend to have a go at you but please remember I am not some 'female' as part of some relatively patronising concept of femaleness. sorry, its late and i'm tired after a trip to stoke today, so i'm probably not putting this very well but i can fight my own battles, see a joke wherever i perceive it to be (and if i don't, i'd say so) and i really don't want to be used as some example.

I don't get why you're laughing out loud one minute, then using the same comment to demonstrate what, in your opinion, is the shitty way wayne talks to women on this board.

having said that, i do think that maybe people new to this board could decide not to hang around. wayne and revol do make me laugh sometimes, i do also want to talk with other people i haven't met and who might well have different opinions than me and i don't want people scared off because they don't have the same sense of humour or because the whole thing seems to cliquey. maybe we could keep the injokes and screaming down a bit, so it doesn't get splashed all over the place?

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There's no use for a network that connects on the basis of ideology except formulating their ideas and sharing experiences and tactics

as long as their ideas and tactics agree with yours? not much scope for imagination there.

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If people's ideas are crap and their tactics irrelevant then fuck them. All revolutionary structures should be grounded in everyday life.

everyday life is full of people whose ideas you'll think are crap and their tactics irrelevant. they live here too. hope you enjoy your revolution and don't get too lonely.

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What's the point in having opinions if you concede they might be in any way wrong?

whats the point in having opinions if you can't concede they might be in any way wrong? how arrogant is this?

Quote:
Primitivists, hippies, liberals etc should have nothing to do with the struggle against the bourgeoisie, so therefore it's the vital task of a revolutionary to point out to them how stupid they are and, where necessary, tell them to fuck off.

yeah. i'd tell em all to fuck off if they don't agree with you. lesser mortals all. hardly human really. still it cheers me up that revolutionaries know how vital it is to the revolution to tell other people to fuck off. must be so sweet to know you're so right. just a pity that a few more revolutionaries couldn't have made it to stoke to tell the NF to fuck off too. as it was it was pretty much left to the dreadlocked squatters.

must have put the struggle against the bourgeoisie back a few years at least. sorry about that. roll eyes

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