EUROPEAN SOCIAL FORUM and where are the Anarchists?

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Wayne
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Oct 9 2004 19:51

I'm not in any of the feds and don't know their reasons for not organising anything but...

The first European Social Forum in Florence was so painful that personally I could never bare to go near another one. So I didn't go to the French one but heard the libertarian thing was shit and the street protest at the end a total farce as the CNT Vignole attempted to steward a non-confrontational march and French autonomes and British autonomes who call themselves anarchists recognised how pointless marching about Paris is and engaged in the worse than pointless activity of throwing things at the brontosauruses lumbering along with the Socialist Party.

The ESF in London is even more reactionary than the other two and is a festival of political opposition that has nothing to do with an anarchist analysis. There's no reason why revolutionaries should involve ourselves in dissent that takes place on the political terrain because we can't recruit to our politics in the same way that the various parties can. If people want to organise something along side that farce then fair enough but I think limited resources would be better deployed trying to organise in workplaces and communities than slipping into the 'political terrain'.

Activist groups like the Wombles operate like libertarian versions of political parties. They want a larger group of activists to carry out actions, as though radical social change could be brought about by a politics thats starting point is abstracted from where power is experienced and can be transformed.

Quote:
Perhaps use Direct Action as a method of spreading the conflicts of social struggles.

No idea what you mean here. What social struggles and what direct action?

raw
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Oct 12 2004 00:41

HI wayne,

Thanks for the reply. Though I'd hope that it will start a bigger/better debate. Anyway, besides the negative critcisms of wombles (sorry mate I don't know who the fuck you you are), I think the main point is about making some political interventions. For example, we decide to do A to achieve B and we learn from it. I see this experimentation as a positive, choatic thing and something which gravitates to an impure politics. After all we are dealing with reality - a naturally un-ideal situation!.

Would like to get more feedback on what people think, and wayne just copying and pasting - "we should concentrate on our workplaces and communities" - Jesus! with politics like that you should join the national feds!

Com 'on lets be grown ups and try and expand a bit what movement we want rather than some isolated abstract that we keep churning out.

Raw

WOMBLES

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Steven.
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Oct 12 2004 10:16

I didn't reply cos I didn't think you'd read the replies... but seeing as you've checked back I mean I do think it's a worthwhile project, and yeah most of the people there won't be die-hard trots, they'll be young kids who wanna change the world.

I was disappointed with the FSL in Paris cos it seems like there anarchists are a large enough force to actually be able to intervene and be heard at the ESF proper. Here we obviously aren't, and I dunno a whole extra event would just seem to separate ourselves off from those people (as we have a tendency to do).

I dunno it's a tricky situation, and I haven't got the time myself but can't speak for af/sf/cw.

I don't get what you mean about the "impure politics"?

john

gangster
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Oct 12 2004 10:39

Good post Mr Raw.

It isn't totally true that CW have done nothing as you may know. There has been no national decision taken re:the ESF, and you may also be overestimating all 3 national federations capacity to do anything... I agree, from an international POV it's very worth participating in this event, I am under no illusions as to it's capability to mobilise people from where I live however. A shame I know, but a London centric approach is not helpful for the dire states political opposition is in, in other regions... It really is a world apart, London, the global city, when relations where I live could be more characterised as an isolated village pre computer... They don't travel far from round here normally.

As for the type of movement we want, I wouldn't be burdoned by criticism if i was you. I haven't seen any I accept of the Wombles anyway. At the minute, i must say that I really appreciate what you are doing, and carry on. The national Feds may begin to move one day;)

Wayne
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Oct 12 2004 15:35
Quote:
besides the negative critcisms of wombles (sorry mate I don't know who the fuck you you are),

What other sort of criticisms do you expect, really fucking positive ones? And what the fuck has whether you know me or not got to do with it?

Quote:
For example, we decide to do A to achieve B and we learn from it. I see this experimentation as a positive, choatic thing and something which gravitates to an impure politics. After all we are dealing with reality - a naturally un-ideal situation!.

What the fuck does that mean? Were you stoned when you wrote that?

Quote:
wayne just copying and pasting - "we should concentrate on our workplaces and communities" - Jesus! with politics like that you should join the national feds!

We should concentrate on our workplaces and communities, on mass proletarian self-activity rooted in everyday life. On autonomous revolutionary struggles with practical benefits for the majority who will never find their niche in the activist role. If you've heard it before then why are you still intent on organising 'actions against capitalism'? You bastard children of RTS and badly dressed Italians who misread Foucault wouldn't recognise revolutionary practice if it dressed up as the tango man and tickled your genitals.

Quote:
Com 'on lets be grown ups and try and expand a bit what movement we want rather than some isolated abstract that we keep churning out.

The sort of movement I want? Well developing impure politics probably wouldn't be high on the list of priorities and nor would be dressing up funny and demonstrating against an economic system. I want a revolutionary movement that starts from where people experience alienation and exploitation and therefor has the potential to communise social and economic relations. That 'isolated abstract' describes the libertarian tradition and the finest moments of over two hundred years of working class history. Now you fucking tell me, and it's the second time I've asked, what does your isolated abstract mean?

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Perhaps use Direct Action as a method of spreading the conflicts of social struggles.
gangster
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Oct 12 2004 16:44

Wayne - I think Raw has many good things to say, 'impure politics' is something that was mentioned in ALbion's Fatal Tree (EP Thompson, Douglas hay, Peter Linebaugh, et al), and has been an important part of much progressive British Marxist thinking...

You asked what does the following by Raw mean "Perhaps use Direct Action as a method of spreading the conflicts of social struggles." I suggest you read Harry Cleavor;) Go look for THesis 15 on his website and you will find the answer;

www.eco.utexas.edu/~hmcleave/secularcrisis.html

While you're at it - go to the merger thread too - there's a couple of messages for you... wink

I also think your view of responsible workplace and community activism, and 'actions against capitalism' is undialectical... It's not a case of either/ or, I go for both myself, a totalising viewpoint. At some point we (the revolutionary working class) have to break out of your 'local activity', and experiments and reminders of that are always relevant... It's not local, or national, or international, it's a synthesis of all three.

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JDMF
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Oct 12 2004 18:24
Wayne wrote:

We should concentrate on our workplaces and communities, on mass proletarian self-activity rooted in everyday life. On autonomous revolutionary struggles with practical benefits for the majority who will never find their niche in the activist role. If you've heard it before then why are you still intent on organising 'actions against capitalism'? You bastard children of RTS and badly dressed Italians who misread Foucault wouldn't recognise revolutionary practice if it dressed up as the tango man and tickled your genitals.

so why don't you wayne? Why do you think that it is important for you to try to stop wombles or other similar groups from doing what they do - is the pool of resources so shallow that you need to move people from one strand of activity/tactics to another? Can't you find people to do your community and workplace stuff without? Or is your ideal situation such that there is only one kind of anarchist activity taking place, ideological and tactical unity and all that?

I don't see why some people find time arguing about these things with people who are not even in their feds/groups and just so and so in the same movement even...

Kidda
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Oct 12 2004 18:29
raw wrote:
This is just a personal note from me.

What has happened to the "Anarchists" in London. One of the biggest events to occur in London for years (over 30,000 people from all over europe that aren't all trots!!) and the mass organisation building anarchists (AF/SF/CW) do not respond. In France the FA organised the Libertarian Social Forum which was well attended as well as there being a big anarchist presence on the streets at the final march. So why AF/SF/CW didn't you see the need to do something similar in London during the ESF? Surely the fight against leftist co-option is a fight worth having considering they are a poison to any autonomous movement (I include in that the struggle of workers outside union/party control as well).

So I think again, what does this say about what people percieve as being anarchist organisations when they fail time and time again to take any intiative at all on the political terrain? Surely membership organisations should fundementallly seek NEW membership and recruit so that they have the organisational capacity to expand the impact of their politics. Don't you think AF/SF/CW that an event like a Libertarian Social Forum would be a way of increasing the influence and impact of anarchist ideas, and atleast attempt to make anarchist politics a social force.

I say this because, after reading that thread about uniting the three nat. feds. seems so depressing. Unite what for what reason? Why not start with at least one organisation that actually does something, experiments with politics and ditches the anarcho-communist doctrine. Perhaps use Direct Action as a method of spreading the conflicts of social struggles.

Any sensible responses welcomed

Raw

WOMBLES

For a full timetable of BEYOND ESF events see:

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/10/298783.html

what you mean, anarchists actually doing something?

eek

dont be saft

tongue

Wayne
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Oct 12 2004 19:38

Gangster, last week you suggested I read some Negri and Tronti unaware that I used to lecture a university course on Italian Autonomist Marxism. Do you not fucking learn? I've read Cleaver you prick and I know how to spell his name roll eyes . I still have no idea what "Perhaps use Direct Action as a method of spreading the conflicts of social struggles" means and would like to know what Raw means by it, not what Cleaver might mean by it were he ever to come up with such a grammatical disaster. In the future, take the time to formulate an argument and present it rather than name dropping vaguely relevant theorists with whom I have much greater familiarity than yourself. Before your next essay is due I suggest you learn how to reference- et al is an abreviation of the Latin et alibi meaning in a bibliographical context 'and others'. The correct reference would either be to list the authors or give the first name alphabetically and attach et al ('hay et al', par example).

And JDMF, is this a forum for political discussion or not? Every time there is any political criticism of an aproach you pipe up with 'why can't every one just do what they want'. Of course they fucking can, the original post asked why other anarchists weren't 'doing summat'. I answered with my personal thoughts. And why am I alone in making some effort to write in a comprehensible way?

Quote:
Can't you find people to do your community and workplace stuff without?
Quote:
I don't see why some people find time arguing about these things with people who are not even in their feds/groups and just so and so in the same movement even...

How am I supposed to respond to that? I'm leaving enrager unless this situation improves.

Vaneigemappreci...
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Oct 12 2004 19:38

Personally i think the WOMBLES are currently possibly the organisation that provides the brightest light for the anarchist movement in britain, their focus on autonomy is pertinent and probably has its roots in RTS et al. However Wayne does have an incredibly valid and important point, there seems to be a lot of talk about transcending the current system and experimenting in politics, but how does this relate to our daily lives? How can people relate to such abstract philosophy, most people lives are based around the daily grind of work, hence we have to organise, primarily at work, this isnt a matter of being stuck in the parameters of employment, obviously we have to aim towards its abolition, this however entails organising at work!

Economic imperative, or the illusion of this imperative, is what entails our organising at work, or if you actually have a community within that community, we cant simply drop out and organise our own lifestyles or ways of living outside the system, the law and economy make that impossible, we have to take the whole wretched system down in the process, otherwise we're condemmed to living on the margins like fucking gypsies.

We have to ask the simple questions first:

What is it were fighting?

-Employment, exploitation, a system which subjugates us, repudiates us as free people, enslaves us, positions us in an ideology, builds up and destroys our environment, regiments us etc etc. Its all very well saying were 'against hierachy' but we have to relate it to everyday life, what hierachy? How does it work?

How are we gonna fight?

-Experimenting in politics isnt enough, it might sound nice and creative on paper but what the fuck does it mean!? Ok we want to liberate life, create areas in which freedom can flourish, but how are we gonna do it, what does it look like? What does it mean for us? We HAVE to fight in workplaces and communities because that is the only way we can trully escape the system, it can only be transcended by firstly abolishing the institutions which butress it, and we have to re-appropriate the parts of the system that can be used creatively in a bid to reduce dependency on work and employment. It follows such logic that strikes, sabotage and organising along radiacl perspectives in work is the most notable means of fighting the system. This doesnt however rule out assaults outside of work, on the cultural and urban milieu. But what would this entail?

What are the alternatives?

-Ok so we havent got any strict ideology or economic system to impose as an alternative, nor should we seek to, such aims are those of bureaucrats and city planners. But we have to offer some idea of how we aim to live, how technology could be used to minimise work, how factories could be used to produce what we want, when. How the streets could be designed with play and freedom from functionality in mind, how the abolition of employment and profit could liberate humans as a race, we have to paint some sort of future otherwise we come across like impotent cynics.

Our fight has to be firstly at work, at the job centre, in university, in every area where we are regimented and subjugated, in the community, in the cities, towns etc.

Our struggle has to be coherent, lucid and decisive, we have to highlight those elements of the system that are predominant in fucking us over and hit them in any way possible, by means which reflect the ends.

Vaneigemappreci...
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Oct 12 2004 19:46

also waynes what do you mean when you say

''Activist groups like the Wombles operate like libertarian versions of political parties. They want a larger group of activists to carry out actions, as though radical social change could be brought about by a politics thats starting point is abstracted from where power is experienced and can be transformed.''

gangster
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Oct 12 2004 20:28
Wayne wrote:
Gangster, last week you suggested I read some Negri and Tronti unaware that I used to lecture a university course on Italian Autonomist Marxism. Do you not fucking learn? I've read Cleaver you prick and I know how to spell his name roll eyes . I still have no idea what "Perhaps use Direct Action as a method of spreading the conflicts of social struggles" means and would like to know what Raw means by it, not what Cleaver might mean by it were he ever to come up with such a grammatical disaster. In the future, take the time to formulate an argument and present it rather than name dropping vaguely relevant theorists with whom I have much greater familiarity than yourself. Before your next essay is due I suggest you learn how to reference- et al is an abreviation of the Latin et alibi meaning in a bibliographical context 'and others'. The correct reference would either be to list the authors or give the first name alphabetically and attach et al ('hay et al', par example).

How am I supposed to respond to that? I'm leaving enrager unless this situation improves.

I don't give a toss whether you've got a doctorate in Italian Autonomist Marxism (and I know a guy who has) or you're a uni lecturer... We all know they're class compromised;)

In the future you stop spouting know it all crap or I'll call you a wankers wanker again... I love it where you say you know more than me, and then try to improve my method of citation. BUT, and here's the rub Mr wants to know it all but really knows nothing... FOR MY PURPOSES MY METHOD of citation was correct, I wanted to name drop the names, becauses for anybody who knows anything then these are really big guns, and here I know I definately know more than you tongue black bloc

And by the way, my Phd viva is next week;) And I'm sure Raw meant that phrase in the same way as Cleavor (spelt deliberately wrongly)... and as for dialectics, the struggles the Wombles promote are ones we all can learn from... You just get on and get involved, do something, promoting your point of view... moaning on about it is about as much use as....

captainmission
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Oct 12 2004 23:01
Quote:
I'm leaving enrager unless this situation improves.

is that a promise?

gurrier
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Oct 12 2004 23:22

Theoretically I agree with Wayne. We need to organise around us, in our workplaces in communities and try to make our politics relevant to everybody. However, the big problem is that we haven't got a clue how to achieve this. Syndicalism worked very well for us at the start of the 1900's, but its results have been pretty much non-existent since. This is not any fault of the anarchists - it's just that in the circumstances of today, with large reformist unions which the government is willing to buy off whenever they get too uppity, there is no space for the tactic. Similarly with community politics, social democracy has proved adept at buying off the leaders and turning them into NGO proffessionals and we simply haven't come up with a way to counteract this.

So, to just repeat this mantra, which is probably quite obvious to most of us, is quite worthless. Believe me Wayne, if you come up with the tiniest amount of success in doing so, you will find anarchists all over the world copying you as soon as they hear the first thing about it.

When you just criticise others who are at least trying something new, without offering any real and concrete way to overcome the problems that we face, sounds like an appeal to purism and ultimate futility. I have big differences with the Wombles and am much much closer to Wayne's politics or to the AF or to SolFed, but frankly I don't see them trying new approaches, just repeating the mantras of anarchism without offering any solutions. At least the Wombles are looking for ways to break out of the marginality that capitalism has squeezed us into. At least they are looking for ways to connect with people and new forms of militant action. Sure, they may have big problems, sure they may not be as pure as the anarchism we'd like to see, but who knows what might come out of them?

raw
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Oct 13 2004 01:01

REWIND for benefit of wayne:

I SAID:

"For example, we decide to do A to achieve B and we learn from it. I see this experimentation as a positive, choatic thing and something which gravitates to an impure politics. After all we are dealing with reality - a naturally un-ideal situation!."

In english, the use of theory in practical activity that can educate the theory to form a new practice. But to always one which finds the theory not keeping up with the practice, therefore making all political theory worth anything (i.e. political theory which has come from practical experience) impure. Basically saying that we learn from our experiences not from our theory because at the end of the day reality stares you in the face.

I SAID:

"Perhaps use Direct Action as a method of spreading the conflicts of social struggles."

Social struggles are the struggles that we (everyone in which ever way) fight. Within this there are conflicts, confrontations which is what gives the dynamic and lifeblood of the struggles against capitalism. Creating these conflicts is therefore the main activity we should be doing.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Some good points/questions asked anyway. In response to workplace/community bollocks. Well most people in WOMBLES don't work, and hopefully will never work! We're a mixture of precarious, unemployed, unemployable, dole scum that knows that hardwork for any rich bastard is shit (we don't have to read theory books for that). That perhaps why we have so much time to organise the OCCUPIED SOCIAL CENTRE or DUBLIN MAYDAY or BEYOND ESF.

And yes, unfortunately too many people work and we should try and get people out of work, resisting the work mentality like some of the fucking anarchists in London who I haven't seen for 2 years (due to work commitments!). Com on for fuck sake, it's the year 2004, unless we throw ourselves into creating/facilitating/aiding a movement against the capitalist project then why the fuck call ourselves anarchists!

Comradely,

Raw

WOMBLES

BEYOND ESF starts Wednesday Oct. 13th from 7pm with a presentations of from the autonomous spaces. Followed by Soundsystem and Live Bands. Food by Anarchist Teapot & Cafe Rebelde Kitchen Crew

Please pick a free BEYOND ESF pass when you arrive ( a requirement of the uni!) or from LARC.

For a full programme see: www.wombles.org.uk

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JDMF
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Oct 13 2004 08:00

The reason why i don't criticise wombles is that i honestly don't know what is the best approach - i choose my battles with my heart not my head, and most people tend to. Politically i don't disagree with wayne, the uni lecturer, at all, much like gurrier i would love to see effective workplace organising.

Now i don't know waynes experiences any more than most people on this board but i can share some of mine: i have done worlkplace organising to extent that i burned out of frustration, and it will be a while before i go back. Sure, things were "easier" (class unity, organising wise etc) in places like a metal factory, but less and less people work in such places anymore. After starting working in offices the situation changed quite a bit and few years of trade unionism has got me very disillusioned... I'm not interested in working on work place issues at the moment to be honest.

Sure i'd go and support striking workers (by the way, the only people who came to support our strike were SWP students, lol!) and will always talk radical and be radical in my workplace, and try to push forwards many progressive and empowering things in desicion making and such like in my work place, but that comes as a second nature, what ever i do, where ever i do, i'll always push the anarchist/far left angle. Now that may sound like moralistic and activist mentality to people like revol, sorry about that.

Anyways, is there a point in this drivel? At the moment i do stuff which would fall into the category of activism, working in definied and ideological groups on various issues, but politically i still think that if the conditions were right i would personally rather do workplace and community organising.

Does that make any sense?

gangster
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Oct 13 2004 08:12
revol68 wrote:
Quote:
And by the way, my Phd viva is next week;) And I'm sure Raw meant that phrase in the same way as Cleavor (spelt deliberately wrongly)... and as for dialectics, the struggles the Wombles promote are ones we all can learn from... You just get on and get involved, do something, promoting your point of view... moaning on about it is about as much use as....

what the fuck would u know about jack shit! ur in fucking class war for fuck sake! Im sorry what the fuck can i learn from the wombles other than its quite pathetic to think u can just import a model of struggle from another country and hope it takes off!

anyway i think most of the Italian autonomia where years behind anarcho syndicalist and council communist theory in terms of understanding working class struggle at and away from the point of production!

anyways the point is that the WOMBLES represent nothing more than a hackneyed and useless attempt at recreating a piss poor group from Italy.

Im not saying that anyone else in the uK or ireland has the correct answers just that jumping on the latest cool bandwagon will get us nowhere, espeically when Ya Basta and co represent a step backwards from traditonal anarchist and anrcho syndicalist theory!

I know jack shit and you're full of shit... 'Traditional theory' has been useless in the new conditions created by neo-liberalism... You're full of contradictions.... Dissing new theory as 'inappropriate in British conditions', which is wrong anyway cos they've given it a British flavour.... and then 'lauding old and failed theory'. You're NO steps forward, 2 steps back...

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Oct 13 2004 12:17

Raw's original post was directed at people/org that do see the importance of political organising and political propaganda -- groups like the national federations and other anarcho groups.

I'm cheered that the responses from people in those kinds of groups (gangster, gurrier, g'sbush) have been positive and realistic.

Wayne's point that we should abandon political organising and activism in favour of struggle that meets concrere needs is a good one -- but it's not actually relevant to raw's point about attempts to engage in political activism at the ESF.

Garner
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Oct 13 2004 13:12
raw wrote:
And yes, unfortunately too many people work and we should try and get people out of work, resisting the work mentality like some of the fucking anarchists in London who I haven't seen for 2 years (due to work commitments!). Com on for fuck sake, it's the year 2004, unless we throw ourselves into creating/facilitating/aiding a movement against the capitalist project then why the fuck call ourselves anarchists!

I was gonna try and make it to Beyond ESF, but you've just convinced me I've got better things to do. Thanks.

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gav
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Oct 13 2004 17:17
gangster wrote:
And by the way, my Phd viva is next week;)

good for you roll eyes

raw
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Oct 14 2004 01:59

"how dare u call urself an anarchist if u have nothing better to do than replicate a bunch of reformed italian stalinists!"

When was WOMBLES ever politically based on Ya Basta? For sure we sort to use the tactics, perhaps some of us were influenced by the dynamics of the italian movement but we are also influenced by alot of other things. It is really easy to stereotype us when we have constantly adapted our politics (as we learn) to our situation. We do call ourselves anarchists, but not only in word but in practice.

For Gav:

So my opinions are now the opinions of BEYOND ESF or even WOMBLES??!!

If you decide to come because of what I have said then its you who are missing out!

-----------------------------

Also just because we are concentrated on creating an autonomous political/social movement and not being defined on what this abstract of the "working classes" are doing then it doesn't mean we are creating an activist ghetto.

Anyway I'm too tired to write, after having a succesful first night (250 people attended BEYOND ESF). Got a busy day doing some real shit.

Raw

WOMBLES

The Blast
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Oct 14 2004 08:04
Quote:
anyway waynes point i think is that if ur goin to do the impure politics thing then u do it were it is necessary and relevant, in actual working class struggles,

This is the main point for me, which is probably why raw has ignored it. (Didn't you know you'd be busy raw? Are you coming back? Or did you start this thread just to make your own points and leave rather than engage in constructive discussion with people?)

So here I am reminding you that revol has reminded you of wayne's unanswered point. Your impure politics remarks are irrelevant to anarchist-communists. Our analysis has always been based on the practical experiences had by ourselves and other working class people. Bakunin, Kropotkin, Makhno, Malatesta and the thousands of others who have developed anarchist-communist theory did so based on empirical studies and firsthand experience of how people behave, and what forms of struggle work.

The reason I don't vote, am wary of unions, think national liberation movements are a bag of shit, and don't go to anti-capitalists and other left wing demonstrations any more is that practical experience (both my own and my understanding of other peoples) has taught me that these methods don't contribute to the building of a popular revolutionary movement and so we should try others.

So now go back and reply to waynes point that we need a movement that

Quote:
starts from where people experience alienation and exploitation and therefor has the potential to communise social and economic relations

rather than starts from a left wing ghetto that is detatched from peoples everyday experiences and so can go nowhere.

Ceannairc
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Oct 14 2004 08:20

BTW, raw, what do the WOMBLES actually do? You speak of direct action, but in what form? Do you spread ideas as well? I have heard of the group, of course, but never been too bothered to look at it in any detail...

redyred
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Oct 14 2004 08:55
raw wrote:
When was WOMBLES ever politically based on Ya Basta? For sure we sort to use the tactics, perhaps some of us were influenced by the dynamics of the italian movement but we are also influenced by alot of other things. It is really easy to stereotype us when we have constantly adapted our politics (as we learn) to our situation. We do call ourselves anarchists, but not only in word but in practice.

So, do you guys still take the batteries out of your phones at meetings?

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Oct 14 2004 09:52
The Blast wrote:
(Didn't you know you'd be busy raw? Are you coming back? Or did you start this thread just to make your own points and leave rather than engage in constructive discussion with people?)

he specifically invited people to join the ESF meeting, so you do know that he has been busy, because it is on now. Give him/her some slack.

Quote:

rather than starts from a left wing ghetto that is detatched from peoples everyday experiences and so can go nowhere.

exactly, which is why i am so suprised how ghettoised many people on this board are who specifically claim that we should break out of the ghetto.

For these people their focus is always inwards, just look at past posts and see how many posts are directed at different strands of anarchism, the wrong issues, the worng tactics, the wrong dressing style, diet and what not - and compare that to the practical discussion on issues affecting wider sections of the working class.

If 0.1% of the working class is involved in direct action movements, there is still the remaining 99.9% to worry about for those who think the wombles or who ever is doing it all wrong, for wrong reasons, and with wrong clothes and hairstyles. But yet, all you see is attacks inside the ghetto.

Step out of your comfort zones and face the real world dudes!

Garner
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Oct 14 2004 09:56

Just a minor point, raw, but you say this:

raw wrote:
So my opinions are now the opinions of BEYOND ESF or even WOMBLES??!!

and sign all your posts with this:

Quote:
Raw

WOMBLES

Am I the only one who sees a contradiction there?

Vaneigemappreci...
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Oct 14 2004 21:17

oh, all the doom and gloom!!!

Creating alternative associations and ways of living outside of the capitalist system Vs Attacking the system from within in the very places where alienation and exploitation have there roots

Actively and consciously avoiding employment is great and admirable but what exactly do all those who abstain from wage labour plan to on when the authorities come and close down there occupied social centre, evict a road proetst campsite, etc?

The point of organising within work is that you have the ability to bring down the very foundations of the system that exploits, subjugates and regiments. You have a base from which to disseminate and spread revolt, an area of production (material or cultural) from which to further the revolt or at the very least you are able to take out an area of capital production and take a shot at the ruling classes.

The whole organising alternative associations and social spaces is a great idea in embryo but it risks falling into a kind of nauseating hippie dropout chique. It can be easily recuperated and doesnt challenge the system at its most destructive points, and as a result is condemmed to remain on the margins.

Anyhow as usual there seems too much talk and not enough action, same old recuperation into a fucking forum. Sure organising in the new work environments that predominate contemporary capitalism isnt easy, but we have to MAKE something happen.

PaulMarsh's picture
PaulMarsh
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Joined: 26-09-03
Oct 15 2004 00:07
The Blast wrote:
Quote:
anyway waynes point i think is that if ur goin to do the impure politics thing then u do it were it is necessary and relevant, in actual working class struggles,

Edited - not posted by me.