Equal Treatment of Fascists and Leninists (?)

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daniel
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Jan 22 2007 22:53
Equal Treatment of Fascists and Leninists (?)

So I have an honest question. Now I very much respect those involved in antifascist work and all, but I have to wonder why fascists are given preferential treatment over leninists and such "red fascist" scum. When its come to the crunch, leninists stab the working class in the back. They're dangerous! History proves it again and again and again.

On revolutionaryleft.com, I saw anarchists talking antifascism with a Stalinist for pete's sake! Stalin killed more people than Hitler - I know that. whats the difference? I understand that for tactical reasons libertarian communists have worked with leninists to fight nazis in the past, and still do. Still, though nazis may be out-and-out clear-cut fucking bastards, leninists don't exactly have a glowing history. I'm just imagining trots taking over government *come the revolution* and putting anarchists in camps, thats all!

Should leninists be given equal (bashing) treatment as fascists or what? Or is there something I'm really missing?

lem
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Jan 23 2007 00:30

I don't know if I agree with killing people for having a different analysis of history.

Tbf fascist ideology is prima facie dangerous, wheras Leninsts simply selectively use ideas that led to danger.

Tho any Leninist (?) that agrees that killing anarchists is a good idea, should probably get bashed at some point.

smile

Eastern Barbarian
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Jan 23 2007 13:49

Bashing Leninists is a good idea, only thing is we do not bother with them here in Poland, because there are simply almost none left smile
For antifa in EE authoritarian left is as much of an enemy as fucking fash, its always clear for us after few dozen years of "workers paradise".

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Tacks
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Jan 24 2007 01:16

cool. So anarchism is bigger than leninism?

Eastern Barbarian
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Jan 25 2007 14:55

Tacks- if you have something valuable to say, then sayi , otherwise leave your stupid sarcasm or whatever it is out of this thread...

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Joseph Kay
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Jan 25 2007 15:02

i don't think Tacks was being sarcastic, you said ...

Eastern Barbarian wrote:
Bashing Leninists is a good idea, only thing is we do not bother with them here in Poland, because there are simply almost none left

... so he asked if anarchists outnumber leninists in poland.

rebelworker
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Jan 25 2007 15:50

1) I would like to know the answer to that question.

2) I think there is a big difference between a rank and file fash and a rank n file lennie or trot (or even maoist).

I think there is no immediate fear of bolsheviks taking power, there is an imminent threat of facists doing lots of damage.

Lennies are still mostly alright people who need to be reasoned with and won over.

Tghuis goes for a small number of fash aswell.

Now heavily organised bolshie parties need to be opposed. Period. I have some friends who were semi bolshie, I used to argue and work wirth them on campaigns. I also said that if I though there was any fear of their party growing bigger than nefac and starting to fuck up shit or take over groups we would phisically smash them.

Thats how i roll on the question. Smae goes for the maoists in town, many of them make more scense than alot of people calling themselves anarchists. The PCR is about as big as nefac here, though mostly alot younger, we can still take them, and we have alot more pull than them, so no threat, we can still win a few of them over and just generally out organise them.

If that ever started to change and they started to serriously threaten to take over and fuck up groups then wuld not be oppoed to having them barred from meetings.

If the group os already bigger than you then i dont know, i think you just have to ride it out and try to win over as many folks as possible(there members and just general active folks).

Most members of large lennie groups are not to solid on the theory in my experience, and join it as the only option, very few would actually have a hard line on killling the competition like some of the leadership.

Any Lenie that is all for killing anarchists should get stomped at some point(when it matters). Mostly there extreem politics towards the rest of the left will be a liablility to them (as i dont see them coming to power anytime in the near future)

Blacknred Ned
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Jan 25 2007 15:52

Coincidentally I've just made a point about this on the CP thread. Leninists - those few left - are at the very best misguided creatures of a dying faith and at the very worst murderous scum dedicated to eradicating freedom in the world so that they can hand out the goodies on the Glorious Day. They are only worth giving the time of day to more than fascists because, being dedicated to betrayal and backstabbing, they are less likely to hit you first face-to-face.

Once upon a time it was better to infiltrate leninist & trot groups in order to lure the more receptive members away to the anarchist cause but now I doubt even this would be a fruitful pastime so low have the sad disciples of the authoritarian left fallen.

IrrationallyAngry
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Jan 25 2007 16:46

Can someone please rename this thread "adolescent wank fantasies"?

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Rob Ray
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Jan 25 2007 16:53

I think that misses the large number of people who simply fall into Leninism cos it's a large organised leftist body and fall out again when they find out it's a load of crap. It's worth engaging to catch them before they give up the left altogether as a bad job.

Also, for all their faults, there are people in Leninist or Trot groups who I've found to be damn good people.

IrrationallyAngry
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Jan 25 2007 16:57
revol68 wrote:
on the contrary my friend my adolescent wank fantasies involved me being beaten by hot Chekists in red army shirts and boots.

I'll see what I can arrange.

IrrationallyAngry
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Jan 25 2007 17:20
guydebordisdead wrote:
There will come a time when we will be on opposite sides of the barricades

That's a rather big assumption, which I think is a little too rooted in experiences coming out of the Russian revolution. A 21st Century revolution will look nothing like anything which happened in a mostly illiterate, majority peasant society which had only just emerged from serfdom. It's problems and internal dividing lines will, I suspect be very different. But this is for another thread.

guydebordisdead wrote:
(socialist party members have openly told me that they would kill anarchists during a revolutionary period)

What just for the laugh? Or that they would if anarchists acted to undermine a revolution? They may simply have been winding you up, but most likely it was exactly the same kind of adolescent "posturing bullshit" which can be found, in mirror image, on this thread.

PM me their names so I can laugh at them.

Black Flag
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Jan 25 2007 17:31

Leninists who are up for killing anarchist deserve everything they get.But the weird thing is I used to be one of those leninists.So leninism can be good for creating anarchists.I know for a fact that atleast 3 leninists(including myself) in thanet,kent where I live have left the SWP and gone over to anarchist/autonomous politics(although one of those people is a primo).So in beating the shite out of these reds,we could be beating up potential anarchos.

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Sam
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Jan 25 2007 18:49
Tim wrote:
Leninists who are up for killing anarchist deserve everything they get.But the weird thing is I used to be one of those leninists.So leninism can be good for creating anarchists.I know for a fact that atleast 3 leninists(including myself) in thanet,kent where I live have left the SWP and gone over to anarchist/autonomous politics(although one of those people is a primo).So in beating the shite out of these reds,we could be beating up potential anarchos.

Good point, i know some guy in the RCG who is suprisingly quite open and not very dogmatic, i reckon he's a potential anarchist, the other ones are more or less hardliners. I don't think it is that black and white with the leninists, especially the younger ones, all we can achieve from attacking them is making anarchists a greater ememy to them, when there is potential to win them over.

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Felix Frost
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Jan 25 2007 19:15
rebelworker wrote:
I also said that if I though there was any fear of their party growing bigger than nefac and starting to fuck up shit or take over groups we would phisically smash them.

So you'll tolerate competing political rackets as long as they stay smaller than you, and don't interfer in your recruiting?

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Jan 25 2007 19:26
guydebordisdead wrote:
More importantly in beating the shite out of them you would be beating someone up for having a different revolutionary ideology to you. You don't beat up fascists because of their ideas but because of the real, immediate physical threat they pose to people.

Quite, militant anti-fascism isn't (or shouldn't be, anyway) motivated by a moral disgust at the racist ideas fascists hold, it's a tactical decision made on the understanding that fascists often pose a physical threat that needs to be dealt with.

Violent tactics are often fetishised with stuff like this as well. I'm not sure how useful beating seven shades out of fash is in 21st century Britain, no matter how satisfying it might be.

IrrationallyAngry
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Jan 25 2007 19:44

On the other hand the left would get a lot more entertaining around here if the anarchists went loco "operation mop up" style!

I can just see it now: an all out assault on Socialist Youth's Temple Bar pitch by the former members of Anarchist Youth. Weedy teenagers locked in mortal combat. The WSM marching on Henrietta Street with hurleys. Piles of unused posters scattered tot the wind. The staff of Connolly Books using their zimmerframes to fend off an all out assault by the Organise! beserkers.

Let me be the first to encourage this.

IrrationallyAngry
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Jan 25 2007 19:54
guydebordisdead wrote:
In fairness no Irish anarchists have advocated attacks on Leninists, it's mostly the yanks & people who have no experience of your lot.

I know, I just think routine demonstrations could be livened up by a few WSMers chasing Richard Boyd Barrett around with sticks.

guydebordisdead wrote:
That said, and this being a posturing thread, AY would knock the crap out of SY fo sho. black bloc

I think you'll find that this is an adolescent wank fantasy thread, so the issue isn't who'd win, but how much each side would enjoy it.

Anyway, SY would have to let you tour around from town to town taking on SY branches one at a time, otherwise it wouldn't be fair.

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Jan 25 2007 21:49
Quote:
Lennies are still mostly alright people who need to be reasoned with and won over.

Tghuis goes for a small number of fash aswell.

Quote:
You beat up fascists because of the immediate danger they represent to you, immigrants and your ability to organise.

Quote:
Quite, militant anti-fascism isn't (or shouldn't be, anyway) motivated by a moral disgust at the racist ideas fascists hold, it's a tactical decision made on the understanding that fascists often pose a physical threat that needs to be dealt with.

Violent tactics are often fetishised with stuff like this as well. I'm not sure how useful beating seven shades out of fash is in 21st century Britain, no matter how satisfying it might be.

At least there seems to be some sense on this thread despite its absurd beginnings.

The point is that communists, be they 'Marxists', or 'anarchists' try to put themselves on the side of the working class. If your fellow worker in a struggle is a fascist, Leninist, social democrat, Green, or 'non-political', you argue with him about how to win that struggle. If possible you try to take the discussion further, and argue about their basic ideology.

The alternative is indulging in what people have rightly called "adolescent wank fantasies".

Devrim

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Jan 25 2007 21:53
Devrim wrote:
The point is that communists, be they 'Marxists', or 'anarchists' try to put themselves on the side of the working class. If your fellow worker in a struggle is a fascist, Leninist, social democrat, Green, or 'non-political', you argue with him about how to win that struggle. If possible you try to take the discussion further, and argue about their basic ideology.

Word, yo.

rebelworker
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Jan 25 2007 23:03

Lenie groups have a tendancy of fucking up coalitions and campaigns by trying to take them over. Ive seen this from both the inside of said groups and from the outside having coalition meetings stacked by covert members who push trough shite or just run a groupinto the ground.

Larger maoists groups in Montreal have a history of kicking the shit out of anarchists in th streets.

NEFAC has a strong position about being open about our membership and not taking over coalitions.

I trust nefac comrades to throw down and smash opressive forces, if be lennies.

I dont see the problem with this, if you do id like you to articulate it instead of making knee jerk assumptions about the work i do.

Or do you beleive that authoritarian revolutonaries wull let people just do there thing? mabey shot dosent get heated in Norway, but in my hood fighting is a part of politics.

IrrationallyAngry
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Jan 25 2007 23:06

I can just see the grimace on your face and hear the panting.

rebelworker
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Jan 25 2007 23:24

Im not sure if this is supposed to be a jab at me or not but I just dont get it.

Im no a big fan of violence, ive lost a close friend to it. im not some young kid who thinks revolutionary posturing is cool, i just take politics serriously and in sometimes that means violence comesinto play, especially when you are talking about labour struggle, revolutionary movements or anti facism.

I dont attack people in the streets very often, the facists in my neighborhood do, occasionally they kill people.

Some campaigns are just to important to let Vanguardist parties fuck them up, anarchists should be organised enough to stop this, by force if nessesary.

Im not sure what people find over the top bout this.

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daniel
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Jan 25 2007 23:25
IrrationallyAngry wrote:
I think you'll find that this is an adolescent wank fantasy thread

Well, that was not my intent! it was a serious question. I'm wondering (practically) why favor fascists over leninists in the opposition department. thats all. I think its quite serious - leninists are potential counter-revolutionary elements. Plus (recruitment-wise) if there are no organized leninist parties, one could hope that those who would have become rank and file leninists might become libertarian communists. I'm not sure about the 'oh, well, often leninists come over to our side' thing. I mean, sure they do, but so do fascists. And (stop me if I'm wrong) but aren't most leninists (of the trot variety in particular) college kids? Check out the SWP's website - its aimed at college kids, as far as I can see.

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daniel
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Jan 25 2007 23:38
madashell wrote:
Quite, militant anti-fascism isn't (or shouldn't be, anyway) motivated by a moral disgust at the racist ideas fascists hold, it's a tactical decision made on the understanding that fascists often pose a physical threat that needs to be dealt with.

I agree that "beating the shit" out of someone just because you don't like their ideas is stupid. where I'm coming from is that i consider leninists potentially life-threatening and not at all good for my health. I think the idea that 'we should leave it until the revolution, see what they do, and then deal with them' is a little shortsighted. Deal with a small threat now so as to avoid a very very very big threat later. i don't think we should repeat the mistakes of the past.
now, in no way do I fetishize violence. I hate violence. I'm a peaceful type. I would hope that violence is not the only way that leninists can be opposed and their organizations destroyed - posties have in the past refused to send fascist hatemail, why not stop trot rubbish as well?
I don't like violence, like i said, but i don't want to be shipped off to the equivelant of siberia by Comrade Leader either.

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Jan 25 2007 23:50
rebelworker wrote:
Lenie groups have a tendancy of fucking up coalitions and campaigns by trying to take them over. Ive seen this from both the inside of said groups and from the outside having coalition meetings stacked by covert members who push trough shite or just run a groupinto the ground.

Yes, but you're not going to stop them doing it with violence, it's tactically inept.

Quote:
Larger maoists groups in Montreal have a history of kicking the shit out of anarchists in th streets.

This, on the other hand, is a bloody good reason for anarchists to organise to protect themselves against Maoists, if it's true.

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Jan 25 2007 23:56
daniel wrote:
I agree that "beating the shit" out of someone just because you don't like their ideas is stupid. where I'm coming from is that i consider leninists potentially life-threatening and not at all good for my health. I think the idea that 'we should leave it until the revolution, see what they do, and then deal with them' is a little shortsighted. Deal with a small threat now so as to avoid a very very very big threat later. i don't think we should repeat the mistakes of the past.

I don't know what the situation is where you are, but over here, Leninism is gradually disappearing up its own arse. And good riddance to it.

As it stands, Leninists don't pose a physical threat and using violence against them in the here and now would be fantastically counterproductive.

As for posties refusing to deliver their stuff, that could be a good thing, depending on the context, but it's not going to happen.

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Jan 26 2007 00:02
madashell wrote:
I don't know what the situation is where you are, but over here, Leninism is gradually disappearing up its own arse. And good riddance to it.

Well I'm very glad.

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Jan 26 2007 00:11
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Some campaigns are just to important to let Vanguardist parties fuck them up, anarchists should be organised enough to stop this, by force if nessesary.

I think that it is worth noting here, and this is just my personal experience, but I suspect that it is true for many others too, that in general more workers' struggles get 'fucked up' by the social democrats, and their unions than get 'fucked up' by 'vanguardist parties'. I don't see anybody advocating attacking Labour party members though. This at least is quite a good thing.

Quote:
where I'm coming from is that i consider leninists potentially life-threatening and not at all good for my health. I think the idea that 'we should leave it until the revolution, see what they do, and then deal with them' is a little shortsighted. Deal with a small threat now so as to avoid a very very very big threat later. i don't think we should repeat the mistakes of the past.

I think that there are some very deep misunderstandings of what anarchism is about here. I am not an anarchist, but I am quite sympathetic to some anarchism. I thought that one thing that the anarchists, and the left communists agreed on though was that violence isn't the way to deal with disagreement within the working class. That is what I would consider the Stalinist method. Any 'anarchist revolution', which started shooting down workers solely on the base of their political ideas, would in my opinion be copying the methods of Stalinists. This is the road that led to Kronstadt.

It is not what labels we put on ourselves, but our theory, and practice that distinguishes our politics. It is not about organising gang wars between different political sects. It is about our activity in working class struggles.

Devrim

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Jan 26 2007 00:23
madashell wrote:
As for posties refusing to deliver their stuff, that could be a good thing, depending on the context, but it's not going to happen.

Firstly, madashell is right, it is not going to happen. Secondly, in the five years that I worked as a postman not once did any Trotskyist group have any 'bulk deliveries'. Remember even when mail from fascist groups has been 'blacked', it is not letters, but leaflets. Thirdly, good luck going into a post office, and arguing that this particular 'left group as opposed to your particular 'left' group should have its work blacked. And finally as I said before it is about our methods. We don't support censoring/banning/blacking 'socialist' publications (even when we think they are objectively anti-working class). This is the line of the Stalinists.

Devrim

rebelworker
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Jan 26 2007 01:20

As i said in an earlier post, im not a big fan of violence, and I dont just randomly go around attacking lennies.

I have infact never been in a situation where I thought it was nesesary, but i do not rule it out as a possibility.