Everything you ever wanted to know about tankies, but were afraid to ask

Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin

One of the stranger developments of the past five years has been the resurrection of the word tankie. It's time for an explainer.

What does tankie mean?

On October 27th 1956, Peter Fryer, a member of the Communist Party of Great Britain, and correspondent for its paper the Weekly Worker, arrived in Hungary. This was four days into an uprising of workers calling for worker controlled socialism. Factories had been taken over nationally by workers councils, in a demonstration of workers self-organisation that was unprecedented at the time, and the first strike on its scale in an Eastern-bloc country. On the 4th of November, Russian T54 tanks rolled into Budapest to suppress the uprising. Street fighting continued until the 10th November, although the workers councils held out for two months.

Fryer returned to the UK horrified by the Soviet repression he had seen, but his attempt to write about it for the Daily Worker was suppressed - the editors were sticking to the official USSR line that the entire uprising was a fascist counter-revolutionary plot and refused to publish anything contradicting that narrative. When Fryer wrote up his experiences anyway, he was expelled from the CPGB. Hungary 1956 split Communist parties across the world; many who had supported the USSR up until this point became disillusioned and split or left individually, while those who stayed loyal to the USSR earned the epithet 'tankies'.

After 1956, the USSR was to invade Czechoslovakia in 1968, then Afghanistan in 1979.

Are all Tankies Marxist-Leninists?

While the original 'tankie' epithet grew out of the split in the Communist Party of Great Britain, the geo-political 'anti-imperialist' support for the USSR and any state aligned against the USA has also been popular with some Trotskyist groups.

In the 1980s it was revealed that the Trotskyist Workers Revolutionary Party (famous for the involvement of actress Vanessa Redgrave) had been receiving funding from Libyan intelligence services and passing details of Iraqi dissidents in the UK to Saddam Hussein.

In the USA, the Workers World Party and Party for Socialism and Liberation both originated in a split from the Trotskyist Socialist Workers Party under Sam Marcy. Marcy split from the SWP over the position it took on Hungary '56, although somewhat bizarrely, also accused those who supported the uprising of being Stalinists. Both parties describe themselves as Marxist-Leninist now, and no longer cite Trotsky, but their origination was in the Trotskyist theory of the USSR as a 'deformed workers state.

So support for crushing of workers movements is shared by both some Marxist-Leninists and some Trotskyists, one explanation for this is that the actual politics of Stalin and Trotsky were not very different.

Are all Marxist-Leninists tankies?

The significance of Hungary was not only the uprising itself, but that it occurred in an Eastern Bloc country which was claiming to be socialist. This caused an existential crisis for any communist that still considered the USSR to be a workers' state. Along with Khrushchev's speech to the 20th Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union in February 1956, exposing and denouncing many of the actions of Stalin.

It was at the same time that Mao began to gradually distance China from the USSR. Maoism had already become a distinct current but without any formal break, which was precipitated by Khruschev's speech and the international reaction to it. Both China and the USSR claimed to be the vanguard of Marxist-Leninism from this point onwards (from here sprang a million accusations of 'revisionism'). This was mostly due to the national interests of the two countries, and internal contradictions in China but was expressed politically as a split with Khrushchev.

The split between China and the USSR, between Maoism and Stalinism, had repercussions elsewhere, such as the multiple splits in the Communist Party of India in the mid-1960s, most often associated with the the Naxalite rebellion, or when the two countries supported opposite sides in Angola's civil war in the 1970s.

Tanks rolled into Tiananmen square in 1989, and those who supported the Chinese government against workers and students have sometimes been labelled 'tankies' too.

This means that 'Marxist Leninist' in the 1960s could include those still aligned with the USSR, those who had been aligned with the USSR but had split after 1956, those influenced by Maoism (Marxism-Leninism-Maoism was coined later in the '90s) and even more confusingly, some Trotskyists would occasionally call themselves Marxist-Leninist too (because they were Leninist Marxists!).

Are all Leninist Marxists Marxist-Leninists?

There have been other historical currents that were influenced by Lenin, including Trotskyism, the Italian branch of Left Communism, and the Operaismo (workerist) tradition in 1960s and 1970s Italy, as well as major figures like CLR James (early on a Trotskyist and leading Pan-Africanist, later moving towards a council communist position). There are huge differences between these currents, as wide as the differences between 'anarchists' and 'marxists'. In terms of a relationship to Lenin we can identity some questions which most of these currents and others have had to answer:

- whether Lenin's work contains unique insights relative to other Marxists at the time
- whether Lenin was correct that Russia would have to pass through a capitalist stage prior to communism and that the task of the Bolshevik party was to raise the forces of production prior to a transition to communism.
- whether the conditions of Russia in 1917 apply to the US in 1960, or to anywhere in the world in 2018.
- whether the USSR was still revolutionary after 1921, 1927, 1956, or 1981.

The answers to these questions led Marxists like CLR James to abandon 'Leninism' almost entirely, whilst still retaining an admiration of Lenin the thinker and historical figure.

Were the Black Panthers tankies?

Some Black Panthers, such as Fred Hampton, described themselves as Marxist-Leninist, but were more influenced by the writings of Lenin and Mao (and the context of Vietnamese resistance to US invasion and African liberation struggles) than the internal or foreign policy of the the USSR. Huey Newton in 1970 introduced the idea of Revolutionary Intercommunalism, a clarification of his ideas which firmly rejected 'socialism in one country'.

In 1966 we called our Party a Black Nationalist Party. We called ourselves Black Nationalists because we thought that nationhood was the answer. Shortly after that we decided that what was really needed was revolutionary nationalism, that is, nationalism plus socialism. After analyzing conditions a little more, we found that it was impractical and even contradictory. Therefore, we went to a higher level of consciousness. We saw that in order to be free we had to crush the ruling circle and therefore we had to unite with the peoples of the world. So we called ourselves Internationalists. We sought solidarity with the peoples of the world. We sought solidarity with what we thought were the nations of the world. But then what happened? We found that because everything is in a constant state of transformation, because of the development of technology, because of the development of the mass media, because of the fire power of the imperialist, and because of the fact that the United States is no longer a nation but an empire, nations could not exist, for they did not have the criteria for nationhood. Their self‐ determination, economic determination, and cultural determination has been transformed by the imperialists and the ruling circle. They were no longer nations. We found that in order to be Internationalists we had to be also Nationalists, or at least acknowledge nationhood. Internationalism, if I understand the word, means the interrelationship among a group of nations. But since no nation exists, and since the United States is in fact an empire, it is impossible for us to be Internationalists.

These transformations and phenomena require us to call ourselves “intercommunalists” because nations have been transformed into communities of the world.
[...]
I don’t see how we can talk about socialism when the problem is world distribution. I think this is what Marx meant when he talked about the non‐state.

Former Black Panthers such as Russell Maroon Shoatz and Lorenzo Kom'boa Ervin, both of whom have spent years in prison for their association with the BPP, have broken with Marxist-Leninism after seeing how the Leninist structure of the Black Panther Party made it vulnerable to the FBI's COINTELPRO programme, and by examining the trajectory of Leninist revolutions.

So the BPP wasn't a monolithic entity politically, and the individual politics of its members as well as the orientation of the party itself changed over time. Rather than claiming it was any one thing, we can read what Black Panther Party members actually wrote in their own right.

And the League of Revolutionary Black Workers?

The League of Revolutionary Black Workers, based in Detroit, described themselves as Marxist-Leninist, but they had close relationships with associates of CLR James such as Martin Glaberman, Grace Boggs, and James Boggs who had broken with Leninism more than a decade earlier, while also being influenced by Fanon and others. Once again the politics are a bit more complex than the labels.


CLR James, Grace Lee Boggs, Raya Dunyevskaya in the 1940s

What about anti-imperialism?

Anti-imperialism means different things to different people. Fundamentally, to be against imperialism should mean support for working class struggles against colonialism, and opposition to capitalist war. Unfortunately 'anti-imperialism' has often morphed into simply taking the side of the USSR in geo-political conflicts, and post-1990, unconditional support to the ruling class in any country aligned against the US.

Lenin in 1914 wrote in The Right of Nations to Self-Determination that communists should support the right of nations to secede, but not the specifics of any particular national struggle. This is because Lenin saw nationalist movements as essential to the development of capitalism over feudalism, as a step on the way towards communism:

Throughout the world, the period of the final victory of capitalism over feudalism has been linked up with national movements. For the complete victory of commodity production, the bourgeoisie must capture the home market, and there must be politically united territories whose population speak a single language, with all obstacles to the development of that language and to its consolidation in literature eliminated.

Even within this stagist framework, Lenin still ultimately stated that the class struggle should take absolute precedence over the nationalist movement:

The bourgeoisie always places its national demands in the forefront, and does so in categorical fashion. With the proletariat, however, these demands are subordinated to the interests of the class struggle. [...] the important thing for the proletariat is to ensure the development of its class. For the bourgeoisie it is important to hamper this development by pushing the aims of its “own” nation before those of the proletariat. That is why the proletariat confines itself, so to speak, to the negative demand for recognition of the right to self-determination, without giving guarantees to any nation, and without undertaking to give anything at the expense of another nation.

Additionally, while American imperialism in 1916 was not at the level it is now, he also rejected the hypocrisy of simply playing off one imperialism against another, in Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism

Let us suppose that a Japanese condemns the annexation of the Philippines by the Americans. The question is: will many believe that he does so because he has a horror of annexations as such, and not because he himself has a desire to annex the Philippines? And shall we not be constrained to admit that the “fight” the Japanese is waging against annexations can be regarded as being sincere and politically honest only if he fights against the annexation of Korea by Japan, and urges freedom for Korea to secede from Japan?

In War and Revolution Lenin wrote:

Nothing but a workers’ revolution in several countries can defeat this war. The war is not a game, it is an appalling thing taking toll of millions of lives, and it is not to be ended easily.

Lenin therefore saw anti-imperialist struggle as being in the realm of bourgeios national revolutions (something to 'critically support' but subordinated to the class struggle), dismissing inter-imperialist conflicts with the slogan "Turn the imperialist war into civil war".

Didn't the USSR support African national liberation?

Sometimes, but only when it supported the USSR's own geopolitical interests. CLR James described his conversation with George Padmore, who had joined the Communist Party and moved to the USSR in 1929, before leaving in 1934 due to the purges and a change in orientation:

But one day, sometime in late 1934 or 1935 there was a knock at my door and I went do the door and there was George Padmore. [...] He said, “I’ve left those people you know.” And that was the biggest shock I received since I had gone to Brazil three years before. “I have left those people” meant he had left the Communist Party. And he was the biggest black man in Moscow, dealing with black people and the colonial revolution. So I said, “What happened?” And he told me. He said, “They are changing the line and now they tell me that in future we are going to be soft and not attack strongly the democratic imperialists which are Britain, France and the United States. That the main attack is to be directed upon the Fascist imperialists, Italy, Germany and Japan. And George, we would like you to do this in the propaganda that you are doing and in the articles that you are writing and the paper you are publishing, to follow that line.” And George said, “That is impossible. Germany and Japan have no colonies in Africa. How am I to say the democratic imperialists, such as the United States is the most race ridden territory in the western world. So I am to say that Britain and France who have the colonies in Africa and the United States, can be democratic imperialists and be soft to them but be strong against Japan, Italy and Germany. That is impossible. What do you think of that?”

Isn't criticising the USSR anti-communist?

There is a tendency by everyone from conservatives, to liberals, to social democrats to criticise the 'crimes of communism' and ignore the actions of capitalist countries. This is complete shite and we reject it completely.

While there were famines and bread riots in the USSR in the 1930s, British policy caused the Bengal famine killing 3 million people in 1943.

While the USSR and China have imprisoned political dissidents, including many communists and anarchists, the USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world, with some political prisoners held in solitary confinement for decades and 1,000 extra-judicial killings by police per year.

While Lenin deported dissident Bolsheviks like Miasnikov and presided over the crushing of the Kronstadt rebellion, social democrats in Germany oversaw the assassination of Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknicht in collaboration with the fascist Freikorps.

While the USSR had 'gulags', Britain put hundreds of thousands of Kenyans and Malayans into concentration camps in the 1950s, and there were forced-labour camps in the UK itself in the 1930s under Labour.

While the US healthcare system leaves people without medical care and destitute, Cuba despite economic sanctions has socialised healthcare and trains healthcare workers for other countries.

Liberal myopia sees a horseshoe where liberal democracy is 'reasonable' and fascism and communism are two poles of 'authoritarianism'. A libertarian communist critique asserts that communism is impossible within the framework of the nation state, and that all states, whether fascist, liberal democratic or socialist will suppress workers self-organisation in the interest of capital.

What about Syria, Iran, North Korea?

A central line of communist and anarchist thought and praxis has been internationalism, and an opposition to war in all its forms. This caused the split in the Second International in 1914 when German Social Democrats voted for war credits. However putting this into practice has turns out to be a lot more complicated.

With the war in Syria, opposition to US intervention, shared by all communists (though not necessarily social democrats), has been marred by support from some organisations for the Syrian government and Bashar Assad and Russia despite the of bombing civilians, on the basis that areas such as Eastern Ghouta are held by Islamist militias and that the 400,000 civilians trapped there are being used as 'human shields'.


The CPGB-ML

This is further complicated by Rojava, supported by both some Marxist Leninists and some anarchists, due to the Marxist-Leninist orientation of the PKK, the Libertarian Municipalist ideas recently adopted by the PKK's leader Ocalan, the TEV-DEM system of administrative councils, and the right to national self-determination of the Kurds. On the other hand, both some Marxist Leninists and some anarchist and anti-state Marxists have been fiercely critical of Rojava, due to collaboration militarily with the US against ISIS (and most recently with Assad against Turkey). On libcom.org we've continued to allow publishing of texts both critical and supportive of Rojava, and regularly get attacked for being NATO shills for both, whether it's the US against Assad or Turkey against Rojava.

With Iran, despite the religious nature of the regime and the fact that all communist parties are banned, when strikes and street protests broke out at the end of December 2017, there was an immediate reluctance to recognise the grassroots nature of the actions, due to the possibility that the US might use the protests as an excuse for 'regime change'. Some commentators went as far as to suggest the protests had been almost immediately hijacked by the CIA, Mossad, or Saudi Arabia.

The cases of Iran and Assad show that in these discussions, the internal contradictions of a country can be completely ignored, with the central question always being "is the country aligned against the US or not?" - on the one hand celebrating Assad's attacks against Islamists, on the other celebrating Iran's religious state against the Haft-Tappeh sugar workers or leftist students.

Our position is that regardless of the actions of the Iranian or Syrian state, we completely oppose foreign intervention, whether US, Russia, or Turkey, on the base that foreign intervention always makes things worse. But to oppose intervention does not require a denial of the internal contradictions of those states or the reality of working class resistance to them.

The same applies to North Korea - we reject under any circumstances US intervention in North Korea, hawks in the US talking about a nuclear weapons programme gloss over the US bombing Japan twice in 1945, let alone the use of depleted uranium shells against civilian areas in Iraq. But to reject sanctions and intervention can rely on a principled anti-militarism and internationalism, solidarity with the North Korean working class, not with Kim Jong Un personally. As we would support the Gwangju uprising in South Korea in 1980, we would support workers struggle in North Korea too.

But Communist parties are very successful in India/Japan?


Communist Party India - Marxist
While the CPI-M likes to hold huge rallies with hammer and sickle flags, it's policies are social democratic. It runs for elections, and where it wins pursues pro-business policies. In Kerala the new communist administration under Pinarayi Vijayan stressed partnership between management and trade unions and promised investment to stimulate industry, including 'Silicon Valley-like hubs'. Not quite seizing the means of production, then.

The Japanese Communist Party, with several members in the Japanese parliament (Diet) abandoned Leninism 25 years ago, deciding to pursue a purely electoral road to socialism, and has recently attempted to work with centrist liberal MPs.

They might be popular Communist Parties, but they aren't... communist.. at all.

What about American Marxist Leninists, are they social democrats too?

The Marcyite Party for Socialism and Liberation's program also sounds suspiciously social democrat if you actually read it, for example:

It will be a right of every person in the United States to have a job with guaranteed union representation and full social benefits provided by the socialist government, including a pension, health care, workers’ compensation, paid parental and family leave for up to two years, paid sick and disability leave, a minimum of one month’s paid vacation, and at least 12 paid holidays.

Isn't this... Sweden?

Working conditions will aim to enhance the humanity and dignity of all workers. The working week will be 30 hours.

That's ten hours less than Bernie's offering, but not quite the abolition of wage labour.

However the PSL is just one party, and you will also see Marxist Leninists oppose electoral activity, working on prisoner solidarity etc. The important thing is to actually read what people say they want, and observe what they do, not just listen to what they say about themselves or check whether there's a hammer and sickle or a rose printed next to the promise of full employment - these aren't the things that decide whether someone is communist or not.

Liberals just call anyone they don't like a tankie!

This is often true. There has been regular red-baiting of mild social democrat Jeremy Corbyn, recently accusing him of being a spy for East Germany in the '80s. The right wing of the Democrats at one point was calling any Bernie Sanders supporter a Russian-influenced alt-leftist. William Gillis of the Center for a Stateless Society recently said of us 'Remember when libcom was about as tankie and class-reductionist as you would ever encounter in the radical left, and we all viewed them as evil suspicious bastards because they wouldn't all outright id as anarchists? ' presumably due to our hosting and promotion of anti-state and post-Leninist Marxists.

Therefore if someone is using 'tankie', they may be objecting to a specific leftist ideology that prioritisies geopolitics over class struggle, or they might just be punching left. When liberals have a go at 'communism' they often mean the Soviet Union (and let's be honest sometimes it's tempting to tell people they'll be first in the gulags after the revolution when they do this, especially if it's fucking Jordan Peterson).

Should I work with Marxist-Leninists?

If you're organising at work or around housing issues, the people you work with are not going to all have the same politics at you, and your opinions on the July 1918 uprising of Left Socialist Revolutionaries after their expulsion from the Bolshevik government are not relevant to that situation. Yes, really, no-one gives a shit. You're relating to each other as workers in that situation, not as representatives of a political niche, at least we hope not.

Anarchists and Marxist-Leninists have also worked together as members of anti-fascist collectives in the US and elsewhere, and this is really a choice for people to make locally.

Things you should bear in mind when organising are -

However co-operation with individuals is very different from a left-unity project, coalitions of organisations etc. The questions to consider when a group is organised in for example an anti-war protest is are they going to try to divert a protest into an ineffectual rally, or co-operate with the police if protesters try to step outside strict limits of activity. Similarly with workplace organising, do co-workers have links with the union hierarchy or management? Approaches to this differ from organisation to organisation and is not strictly linked to ideology.

If there are real political and organisational disagreements, it's better to be open about them than gloss over them, and retain some independence.

Posted By

Mike Harman
Mar 8 2018 21:45

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Lucky Black Cat
Aug 1 2019 05:13

I'm part of a Marxist group on facebook and today saw a post dissing North Korea but then the comments were crawling with people defending North Korea.
Sorry, I know this has nothing to do with the direction the conversation has taken, I'm just flabbergasted.

Devrim
Aug 1 2019 06:50

Nymphalis, they might be mildly annoying, but they don’t have the power that Stalinists used to have in the West.

Devrim

Nymphalis Antiopa
Aug 1 2019 10:20

Smashing up a bookstall and threatening the person running it because he'd said, in a moment of idiocy, that we should burn all churches including black churches is more than "mildly annoying". And besides, not opposing these people tends to make so-called "anti-authritarians" become like them. So in Paris, a few years back, various "anti-authoritarians" physically attacked an anarchist library because it opposed all forms of religion, including Islam, one "anti-authoritarian" even suggesting the place be "purefied with fire". And a meeting in Marseille critiquing the rise of intersectionality was trashed and physically broken up by intersectionalists inspired by a more modern form of academic leftism than tankism . Of course, tanfkes don't have the power they used to have before the fall of the Berlin Wall -but the same mentality, however, is being reproduced amongst "anti-authoritarians".

A tolerant indifference to these arseholes undermines any critique of authority the supposed "anti-authoritarians" have of fascism, for example, since they're prepared to tolerate anti-fascists every bit as bad in their model of what "anti-capitalism" means as fascists and other racists. Doesn't matter that they no longer support the invasion of XYZ by state capitalist "communists", Instead they support Stalinists like the PKK every bit as tankie in their mentality as the old Leninoid hacks and go off to fight for Rojava or some other pseudo-"communist" mini-state.

Mike Harman
Aug 1 2019 16:48

So here's an actual example of Maoists disrupting anarchist stuff:

Red Guards showed up at La Conxa in LA to disrupt a court support workshop last night:

https://twitter.com/edcns_ineditas/status/1156803230338207744

Nymphalis Antiopa
Aug 4 2019 05:49

Another example of so-called "mildly annoying" Stalinist-scum behaviour: a guy I know in California , who'd consistently critiqued the RCP in his area, had his cat kidnapped and tortured by these "mildly annoying" red fascists. He somehow retrieved it a few weeks later; it took the cat 5 years to overcome the trauma and become relatively unneurotic. He himself (the cat's owner) had to put up with constant sabotage of his car, including being CS gassed whilst driving by these "mildly annoying" filth, a near-death experience.

Leninism,as the delusion of what revolution means, is on the rise. "Anti-authoritarians" who minimise the psychotic devotion of these "mildly annoying" torturers to the cause of possibly the biggest mass murder sprees in history (e.g.38 million died in the Great Leap Forward alone - see this:
https://chinadigitaltimes.net/2018/01/translation-party-history-people-c... ) are like turkeys minimising Christmas (or should I say partridges minimising Trotsky). Libcom - tolerating morons like Leninst girl here on this thread - have the effect of minimising a threat that seems as innocuous as the Nazi Party in Germany in 1928.

Ed
Aug 2 2019 16:03
Devrim wrote:
Stalinism used to have a massive influence in the working class. I’m old enough to remember how they used this influence to sabotage strikes. I could probably tell you some stories about their behaviour that would shock most young people here.

I actually think that these stories would be really beneficial to this discussion so if you've got the time/inclination, Devrim, I'd encourage you to go for it.

My reason being that, given those experiences, I wonder how you think we should relate to Leninists as we encounter them in, for instance, our unions (where once you're engaging with your branch, they're bound to be there)? Because the arguments in this thread seem to be drawing people to a 'no platform' policy similar to that used against fascism (which doesn't seem helpful to me) rather than viewing them as a potential obstacle to be organised around (which I don't think is controversial at all here).

I also wonder what you think about the role of CP militants in things like the 1930s sit-down strikes in America (where Piven and Cloward say they were the most significant rank-and-file organisers, for eg) or the postwar factory/land occupations by partisans (often led by the PCI) in Italy after the fall of fascism. I mean, the flipside is that CP leadership in the US and Italy also served to undermine both movements, but it nonetheless seems to me that in those instances, rank-and-file CPers served to organise/push forward struggle (even if their leadership ended up pushing it back)..

Nymphalis Antiopa
Aug 2 2019 16:37

In a hierarchy the essential problem is not those at the top, who obviously have an interest in maintaining the hierarchy, but those at the bottom who actively or passively succumb to those at the top (this is whether it be in a Leninist party or more generally in society as a whole). Those at the bottom might initiate something that pushes forward struggle but if their leadership ends up pushing it back it's basically because the hierarchical mentality nurtured by the party means that those at the bottom allow them to push it back. The party mentality encourages such defusing of a struggle in the name of "unity" - ie shut the fuck up &/.or sing from the same songsheet.

Devrim
Aug 4 2019 08:45

While having your cat kidnapped may be slightly more than ‘mildly annoying’ if it happens to you, it’s pretty much an indication of how marginal and pathetic these people are. Doing weird stuff like this to individuals is indicative of people with no power in society, or even in their own lives.

Devrim

darren p
Aug 4 2019 17:47
Mike Harman wrote:
So here's an actual example of Maoists disrupting anarchist stuff:

I wonder how much of this is some could be some kind of COINTELPRO thing? Certainly helps the powers that be whatever way...

R Totale
Aug 4 2019 18:32

I'm usually really really reluctant to go with the "person or group I disagree with must be working for the state" line, but having been aware of this particular group for a while, if there's no-one in their hierarchy getting paid by the state, then they're definitely selling themselves short - if they're not disrupting anarchist stuff, then they're nailing up pigs' heads outside DSA meetings, or trying to break up meetings of other Leninist groups, or writing extended essays about why violence against "postmodernists" is justified, with people who turn up late to meetings offered as one example of "postmodernism", and so on and so on. A very strange lot, in some ways I hope there's some state direction going on there because it'd be a less depressing explanation than people actually being that daft.

Black Badger
Aug 4 2019 19:59

Occam's Razor, pretty please? Many actual anarchists and anti-state/libertarian communists must already know that Leninists -- especially the more sectarian and disruptive slugs -- are perfectly capable of attacking us without any instructions from outside party cadres. It's been happening for over a century with no need to point fingers at the state and its agents (most of whom are too dense to tell the difference between various sects, and so wouldn't know which ones dislike each other). COINTELPRO was successful to the degree that the penchant/fetish for internal secrecy (which almost inevitably leads to organizational paranoia) in various leftist sects made it possible to write plausible poison pen letters and vague threats signed by obvious rivals. Most COINTELPRO operations were clearly aimed to generate bad blood, bad publicity, and bad choices in order to make it easier for the state to arrest/imprison/execute anyone the state decided is too much of a dissident. That's an entirely different method of disruption than what's been carried out over the past 20-30 years by Maoists, quasi-Maoists, Identity Politicians, and various Lenino-Stalinist creeps against anti-authoritarian projects and individuals. The moves by the latter are clearly designed to quash radical challenges to their parties' attempts to create ideological conformity; the state and its agents couldn't care less about such things.

R Totale
Aug 4 2019 20:59

Yeah, like I say I'm normally very reluctant to point the finger at the state, I'm aware of how stupid people who always use that as their go-to explanation/insult sound, and I certainly don't see the CIA or whoever as being behind every falling-out. I'm just saying that, in my opinion, the single-minded focus the US Red Guards have on beefing with other leftists or anarchists, and their seeming lack of interest in anything else, seems outside the range of standard Leninist behaviour in a way that seems suspicious to me. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get.

Black Badger
Aug 13 2019 15:29

Apparently still nothing to see here...
https://itsgoingdown.org/anti-repression-workshop-attacked-la/

R Totale
Aug 13 2019 18:09
Black Badger wrote:
Apparently still nothing to see here...

Not quite sure who you think has been saying that?

Black Badger
Aug 13 2019 20:28

Anyone who thinks Maoists and other Stalinists don’t have sufficient social traction to cause harm to anarchists and other anti-state radicals...

Sike
Aug 14 2019 02:21
LeninistGirl wrote:
Otto Rühle and the other councilists were fundamentally wrong though. They thought that fascism having "abolished" or destroyed the use of political parties and trade unions, which would open up new forms of workers self-organisation(this didn't happen).

The ideas of Otto Rühle and the council communists calling into doubt the revolutionary potential of political parties and unions was not a response to fascism. For instance, Rühle published The Revolution Is Not A Party Affair in 1920, or two years before the seizure of state power by the fascists in Italy.

Otto Rühle and councilist ideas were a response to the betrayal of the workers by the reformist trade union leaders and Social Democrats in Germany and elsewhere after these so-called leaders had betrayed the international solidarity of the workers by coming out in support of their respective national leaders during the First World War. Rühle and other left-communist that embraced councilist ideas were also influenced by the experiences of the autonomous workers councils in the Russian and German revolutions of 1917 and 1919, respectively, as well as their betrayal and suppression by both the Social Democrats in Germany and the Bolshevik Party in Russia.

R Totale
Aug 14 2019 08:17

I mean, I don't want to downplay how horrible this toxic cult is, but I still agree with what Devrim says above about how this is indicative of people with no social traction at all. Like, looking at fascists I think it's fair to say that a group like Patriot Front are a nuisance, but not a social force comparable to, say, Golden Dawn or the Free Tommy movement; and these freaks sound like a pain to be around, but I don't think the proletariat of LA will be flocking to follow their lead any time soon.

R Totale
Aug 15 2019 20:45

Angry piece about tankies on leftbook and the London student scene. Always good to see people pushing back against this crap, but the article could really use a decent editor, and I was sort of left feeling that although the author is to be commended on rejecting the politics of self-righteous social media/student scene stalinists, their method of communication is still a bit too similar. Ho hum.

Mike Harman
Aug 15 2019 20:50

It's also at least with the groups explicitly named talking about Trots as much as tankies.

Nymphalis Antiopa
Aug 19 2019 03:12

R.Totale:

Quote:
I still agree with what Devrim says above about how this is indicative of people with no social traction at all.

For the moment, maybe. But tankies and other, subtler, forms of Leninism had their devastating effect in times of massive class struggle. There are virtually no places in the world where class struggle is as widespread as it used to be even 30 years ago. Should class struggle erupt on a considerably wider scale than now the zombie-vampires of Leninism are also likely to be revived from the graveyard of history, ready to suck the blood out of social contestation.

Devrim:

Quote:
While having your cat kidnapped may be slightly more than ‘mildly annoying’ if it happens to you, it’s pretty much an indication of how marginal and pathetic these people are. Doing weird stuff like this to individuals is indicative of people with no power in society, or even in their own lives.

In forgetting to mention the fact that the guy could have been killed by the Maoist attack with CS gas attack whilst he was driving his car, he minimises what I said. As for being " indicative of people with no power in society, or even in their own lives" I suspect that that applies to the vast majority of those posting on this site - not just to tankies. The fact that libcom thinks it's often ok to politely debate with red fascists, that even in the OP Harman can say (and I repeat this because it's constantly avoided):

Quote:
Anarchists and Marxist-Leninists have also worked together as members of anti-fascist collectives in the US and elsewhere, and this is really a choice for people to make locally.

is " indicative of people with no power in society, or even in their own lives".

Meanwhile the impotent tankies of the Morning Stalinist are showing very clearly which side of the Hong Kong barricades they're on: https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/rival-demonstrations-mounted-hon...

LeninistGirl
Aug 19 2019 04:13
Quote:
For the moment, maybe. But tankies and other, subtler, forms of Leninism had their devastating effect in times of massive class struggle.

Where has "subtler" forms of leninism had "devastating effect in times of massive class struggle"?

darren p
Aug 19 2019 07:04
LeninistGirl wrote:
Where has "subtler" forms of leninism had "devastating effect in times of massive class struggle"?

Tankies got to tank I guess

LeninistGirl
Aug 19 2019 08:41

Are tankies "subtle" leninists?

Ed
Aug 19 2019 10:31
Nymphalis Antiopa wrote:
The fact that libcom thinks it's often ok to politely debate with red fascists, that even in the OP Harman can say (and I repeat this because it's constantly avoided):

Quote:
Anarchists and Marxist-Leninists have also worked together as members of anti-fascist collectives in the US and elsewhere, and this is really a choice for people to make locally.

is "indicative of people with no power in society, or even in their own lives".

I wonder what constantly posting on a website you hate (and about how much you hate said website, no less) is indicative of.

Nymphalis Antiopa
Aug 19 2019 13:24

Ed:

Quote:
I wonder what constantly posting on a website you hate (and about how much you hate said website, no less) is indicative of.

It's indicative not of hate but of disgust for and frustration with so-called anti-authoritarians tolerance for authoritarians that they could easily reject, indicative of a desire and struggle for life, and indicative of a desire for effect, which, since no-one, as far as I can see, has seriously responded to my point about debating with and even participating in organising stuff with red fascists, is maybe indicative of a lack of influence at least. So, in this sense, Ed may be right. But it's not at all "constantly", not nearly as much, by any stretch of the imagination, as the vast majority of stuff on this site devoted to denouncing and critiquing organisations and politics that posters hate or at least really dislike. Ed's attempt to say something about this might seem like a clever point to make, but it's a fairly normal part of internet politics, and of anti-politics in general which anyone who's angry about this world does, including Ed himself. Who reading this only critiques people they like, only goes along to meetings of people they like, only discusses things with people they like, only distributes texts to people they like?

Black Badger
Aug 19 2019 15:05

seriously, Ed; not very dialectical of you (heh)

R Totale
Aug 19 2019 18:15
Nymphalis Antiopa wrote:
For the moment, maybe. But tankies and other, subtler, forms of Leninism had their devastating effect in times of massive class struggle. There are virtually no places in the world where class struggle is as widespread as it used to be even 30 years ago. Should class struggle erupt on a considerably wider scale than now the zombie-vampires of Leninism are also likely to be revived from the graveyard of history, ready to suck the blood out of social contestation.

I mean, I agree with you here, but that's a bit like saying "if circumstances were very different, then people would behave differently and different things would be appropriate", no? Like, I think one of the points people have been driving at is that it comes across as a bit weird to insist on reacting to things in the UK (or wherever) in 2019 the same way we would as if we were living through a massive class struggle?
I sort of think the whole point of having an analysis is that it lets you distinguish between different things, and if I read an antifascist article that acted as if, say, Atomwaffen, Jobbik, National Action, Pie 'n' Mash and the FN/RN were all basically interchangeable I wouldn't think that was much good either.

darren p
Aug 19 2019 19:13

The original article didn't mention the POUM - I'm not too familiar with their actual texts but think it's fair to say these were 'Leninist' in one way or another - in the same way that the left-communists were. So it is a bit of an oversimplification to think that all kinds of 'Leninism' are the same or do / did present a threat to organized anarchism.

Black Badger
Aug 19 2019 21:00

darren, if you think the POUM didn't present a threat to the revolutionary gains of the CNT-FAI-FIJL and Mujeres Libres up through 1937, then you definitely don't know enough about their centrist perspectives and their fully pro-state agenda and strategies. most folks seem to think that there was an informal alliance between the CNT and the POUM due to their respective dislike of Stalinism, but even at an informal level (with the probable exceptions of individual members who were on comradely terms), the two movements were beset by rivalry and hostility. in 1921 Nin, one of co-founders of the POUM, traveled to the Soviet Union as a delegate of the CNT to the Profintern while he was a secret member of the PSOE and stayed on, becoming Trotsky's secretary for a time. Maurin, the other co-founder, defected from the CNT in 1924 and became a supporter of the Right Opposition under Bukharin. both leaders of the POUM loathed the CNT's electoral abstentionism and non-involvement in party politics. the two movements were to become reluctant (and purely defensive) allies during the May Days; beyond that, there were few commonalities. with the Stalinists breathing down their necks, the POUM may have become more respectful and less overtly hostile toward their rivals in the CNT, but i have few doubts that had the Stalinists not been as influential a force from 1936, the POUM would have done even more to undermine the anarchist-inspired revolutionary experiments in Spain (and more especially in Catalunya).

darren p
Aug 19 2019 21:10
Black Badger wrote:
the POUM would have done even more to undermine the anarchist-inspired revolutionary experiments in Spain (and more especially in Catalunya).

In what ways do you think the POUM undermined the collectives?